Scouring of the Shire...

[Nurvingiel]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
Nice try, but it's "Indigo Mantoya" lol...

Yarr. I knew I had spelt it wrong. I haven't seen The Princes Bride in ages. I hope this doesn't detract from the validity of the rest of my spoof.

Which threads were your Xenarwen scenarios in? (Is that why you made Liv Tyler cry?) I find this line of humour especially amusing ever since I read The Mouth of Sauron - LotR Humour. You'd enjoy it.

[ethuiliel]

Well, the Scouring of the Shire was a great part in the book, and it did have relevance to the story, whatever some people may say. I am re-reading the Return of the King, and I just finished that chapter of the book. I can't help but be sad that it won't be there. Still, there's nothing I can do.
I wonder how they will do the Grey Havens scene. Will they go strait from Rivendell to the Grey Havens? That's how they did it in the animated version (which I watched when I was impatient about seeing RotK.), and it really didn't seem right, and was a great disapointment to me.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by ethuiliel
Well, the Scouring of the Shire was a great part in the book, and it did have relevance to the story, whatever some people may say. I am re-reading the Return of the King, and I just finished that chapter of the book. I can't help but be sad that it won't be there. Still, there's nothing I can do.
I wonder how they will do the Grey Havens scene. Will they go strait from Rivendell to the Grey Havens? That's how they did it in the animated version (which I watched when I was impatient about seeing RotK.), and it really didn't seem right, and was a great disapointment to me.

I don't think the majority of the people who love the movies and books will dispute the Souring's validity. I do think it's a mistake that they won't be having it in the film, which is why I hope they film it between now and the release of the RotK:EE and put it back in...

[Nurvingiel]

Yes, I think the greatest lover of the movies would have wanted to see how Jackson would have done it. The greatest lover of the books would have wanted it included for plot continuity and character story arcs.

By the way Dúnedain, it's actually Inigo Montoya.

[Bacchus]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I see you also find it funny how Elrond does nothing about the Ring - even though HE knows that it's destruction is the only way to destroy Sauron (double )

How can anyone possibly have a problem with this? It's basically what happenned. Cirdan and Elrond counselled Isildur to destroy the Ring, and he refused. Are we now blaming Jackson for Tolkien's plot?

[Nurvingiel]

Maybe it was impossible to portray it properly, but I didn't find Jackson's way of portaying it believable. When I read it, it was completely believable.

Tolkien is a master storyteller and doesn't reveal all details and proceedings. Sometimes, much is left up to the reader. In the book, he put in just enough detail that the situation was completely believable. As I read a book, details that are implied are filled in nicely in my mind.

In a movie, due to the different nature of the media, it is much more difficult to have the audience imagine what you are implying.

I don't know how a better way would have been, but I wasn't convinced by Jackson's portrayal.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
Maybe it was impossible to portray it properly, but I didn't find Jackson's way of portaying it believable. When I read it, it was completely believable.

Tolkien is a master storyteller and doesn't reveal all details and proceedings. Sometimes, much is left up to the reader. In the book, he put in just enough detail that the situation was completely believable. As I read a book, details that are implied are filled in nicely in my mind.

In a movie, due to the different nature of the media, it is much more difficult to have the audience imagine what you are implying.

I don't know how a better way would have been, but I wasn't convinced by Jackson's portrayal.

I really don't understand how you and JD are giving Jackson grief over that scene. If you read the couple versions of the telling of that story, Jackson's depiction is well within the limits of how it could have gone, except for Cirdan not being there...

I posted this in another thread about the same subject:

Here is another version of Isildur and the ring as well:

The Silmarillion: Of the Rings or Power and the Third Age. p.295;

The Ruling Ring passed out of knowledge even of the Wise in that age; yet it was not unmade. For Isildur would not surrender it to Elrond and Cirdan who stood by. They counselled him to cast it into the fire of Orodruin nigh at hand, in which it had been forged, so that it should perish, and the power of Sauron be for ever diminished, and he should remain only a shadow of malice in the wilderness. But Isildur refused this counsel, saying: 'This I will have as weregild for my father's death, and my brother's. Was it not I that dealt the Enemy his death-blow?' And the Ring that he held seemed to him exceedingly fair to look on; and he would not suffer it to be destroyed.

So, it is safe to say that they are right near Mount Doom, it could also even be that they are in the chasm as it says "cast it into the fire of Orodruin nigh at hand". That could mean they are near Orodruin or it could also mean they are near the fire of Orodruin, such as them being in the chasm and the fire being "nigh at hand". That is really left up to interpretation, but either way they are still right there...

Now if you watch Jackson's version, with that description and even the one given in FotR, I just don't understand how you can critique it other than Cirdan not being there. The moment must have been tense for Elrond and Cirdan as they tried to convince Isildur to throw the Ring in the fire. If you read that description I wrote above where it says "And the Ring that he held seemed to him exceedingly fair to look on; and he would not suffer it to be destryoed" and then watch that part of the movie, the actor's expression convey's that look...

[Dúnedain]

Ok back on topic

I was thinking about the Scouring again today, because my brother was watching Fellowship of the Ring as he is gearing up for RotK tomorrow, lol.

Anyway, someone commented that they didn't "film the Scouring of the Shire scenes", but I contend that they did, at least some of it. I say this because in the mirror of Galadriel scene in FotR, they show the Shire as a wasteland and people burning the shire and hobbits chained up and stuff like that. They also show BagEnd before that and then BagEnd after it in ruin. Soooo, they did do some work on it, whether they finished it or not is another thing. I do hope they add it to the Extended Edition, because I'd like to see it done. With that being said, what do you think? It's obvious some work was done on it...

[Ruinel]

I haven't seen the movie yet, but I'm disappointed already at a few things (ie, Scouring, etc) mentioned here. I'll wait until I see it for myself before I cry over spilled milk.

[Elenessiel]

I don't think that Frodo's vision of the Shire in the Mirror was actually related to the Scouring. It seems pretty clear that Jackson ruled out filming the Scouring very early on. Besides, the pictures in the Mirror don't really resemble a scoured Shire. I mean, come on. Huge infernos and hobbits in chains were not exactly part of Saruman's plan.
I think, especially after seeing FotR Extended again, that the Mirror sequence's purpose is to drive two points home to Frodo:

1) The Ring must be destroyed if the free world- INCLUDING THE SHIRE- is to be saved. Frodo absolutely cannot turn back.
2) He must go on without the Fellowship. The shots of Legolas and the other hobbits are from the Extended scene with Haldir, in which he refuses to let the Fellowship take sanctuary in Lorien because of the evil Frodo carries. Add this to Galadriel's "One by one, it (the Ring, presumably) will destroy them all," and you've got a pretty clear game plan for Frodo.

So it seems that the Shire burning shots were not a preview of Saruman's sneakiness after his defeat, but a preview of the eventual fate of the Shire if the powers of evil are NOT defeated, very much along the lines of Merry's "the fires of Isengard will spread... there won't be a Shire, Pip" speech in TTT. Nothing to do with the Scouring.

[ethuiliel]

The Scouring of the Shire may be slightly anti-climactic (sp?), and that may be why PJ didn't like it, but it's still a very important part of the story.

If you think about it, the fact that the Shire was ruined despite the victory gives more weight to the rest of the story. Also, it is a more heartfelt part. The hobbits (and us, in a way) have only seen most of the other parts of ME in one way, somewhat ruined, or at least fading. However, the Shire is green and good and pretty and happy in the beginning, and we know it. When it's not in the end it hits them (and us) harder, and feels sadder. When I saw the movie and the Shire looked so green and pretty I realized how significant the fact was that it wasn't in the end of the book.

[Elvengirl]

PJ and the actors could always go back to New Zealand and shoot it now, couldn't they? Then it could be put in the Extended. Or have they completely finished the DVD already?

[cassiopeia]

I doubt they've finished the DVD, because they were still working on the special effects this year for TTT EE. But they would have to get all the actors back to New Zealand to shoot, and they probably are working on other projects now, so it's doubtful. But I can always hope.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Originally posted by Elvengirl
PJ and the actors could always go back to New Zealand and shoot it now, couldn't they? Then it could be put in the Extended. Or have they completely finished the DVD already?
_____________________________
I was under the impression they disassembled the Shire set after the movie. If they did, wouldn't it be really tricky doing the Scouring? Half to mostly do bluescreen stuff and work in old footage. Although I believe PJ said on FOTR DVD he saved Bagend.

[Valandil]

Now - nobody get me wrong, please... in the books, I totally love 'Scouring of the Shire'. The last couple times I read LotR, I've really appreciated that part more than before.

However, in the movie... I thought there was something especially poignant about how the hobbits return to the Shire, how they're looked at, how they sit quietly at the table in the Green Dragon as normal activity goes on around them... it's like, these guys just saved the world, and nobody else even knows it!

At the end of the scene just prior, all of Gondor - including its new king and queen, the armies of Rohan, the highest lords of the Elves - all the greatest of the allies of the West, had bowed down to these four hobbits. Then they come home and they're just greeted like some losers who had been away from home for too long.

Truly, a prophet hath no honor in his home town...

[Elvengirl]

True, but that's why there needs to be a scouring, so that these heroic hobbits are treated with some respect.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally posted by Valandil
However, in the movie... I thought there was something especially poignant about how the hobbits return to the Shire, how they're looked at, how they sit quietly at the table in the Green Dragon as normal activity goes on around them... it's like, these guys just saved the world, and nobody else even knows it!

True, but the Scouring deals with this theme in more detail, and wraps up Saruman's story arc, which I felt was left dangling dangerously.

[Valandil]

'dangling dangerousely' ... WHhhheeeee-ew! I LIKE that!

Still - I think there's a very strong sense of irony about the way PJ does it... of course, it's all lost on the inhabitants of the Shire - but shouldn't be on the rest of us.

[Thorin II]

I think the Scouring shows the necessary difference between epic books and epic movies. A lengthy epilogue is appropriate for a book, but it doesn't work well in a movie. Both times I saw the movie, the audience was impatient for the falling action to end after Sauron was destroyed. Adding another plot line (and 20-40 minutes of time) would have started a riot. Even as a Tolkien fan, I think it was necessary to cut the Scouring.

[Thorin II]

Oh, for what it's worth, I don't think Galadriel's Mirror was intended to show the Scouring. Remember that there were lots of orcs/Uruks and widespread destruction. The Scouring had no orcs and was more about industrialization and control than it was about destruction. I think the Mirror was supposed to show how the Shire would be impacted if Sauron recovered the Ring.