Scouring of the Shire...

Dúnedain · 11-22-2003, 02:24 PM

***SPOILERS may be included for some who don't know***

Ok, as we all know by now that the scouring isn't going to be in the RotK. However, in FotR we saw some scenes of the scouring. Does anyone know if the scouring is planned for the Extended Edition of RotK? I would at least hope it would be...

Goldberry1 · 11-22-2003, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dúnedain
However, in FotR we saw some scenes of the scouring.

you know, i totally forgot about that. well, i guess if anything that shows they probably thought about the scouring. i certainly hope something about the scouring is included in ROTK extended edition.

**Nurvingiel** · 11-22-2003, 09:06 PM

I was wondering about the too. I think they will do the Greyhavens scene, and have a flashback that would explain what happened in the Shire (including the death of Saruman?)

Either that or they could say that Frodo's destruction of the Ring averted the enslavement of the Shire as predicted by Galadriel's mirror. This wouldn't be totally out of line, though dissappointing, because Galadriel does hint that the future shown by her mirror won't necessarily come to pass.

Goldberry1 · 11-22-2003, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
Either that or they could say that Frodo's destruction of the Ring averted the enslavement of the Shire as predicted by Galadriel's mirror.

that's always a possibility. though - being the pessimist that i am - i don't have hopes that it will be mentioned at all. i doubt if the average movie-goer would pick up on something like that.

**Nurvingiel** · 11-22-2003, 11:30 PM

Well, I guess it wasn't that significant in the movie. But the Scouring has to be mentioned somehow, otherwise how will the story end? Maybe there will be a clean lift to the Grey Havens scene.

jerseydevil · 11-26-2003, 10:49 PM

It's not going to be included in the RotK at all. Jackson never filmed the Scouring of the Shire - also what Frodo saw in the Mirror was an over-hyped action scene anyway.

Quote:

Secrets of the "King" (Newsweek)

The Scouring of the Shire: One of the final sequences of the book, where the hobbits come home, find their hometownÃ•s gone to pot, kick some butts and restore order. Jackson never liked this section of the book, and never even shot it, so don't look for it on the DVD.

Jackson's problem with the books - is that he seems to ignore the fact or is too stupid to know that the Hobbits are the central characters.

Goldberry1 · 11-26-2003, 11:28 PM

Quote:

posted by jerseydevil
... he seems to ignore the fact... that the Hobbits are the central characters.

Yeah, it got on my nerves somewhat that scenes with the hobbits seemed dramatically less in TTT than those with Aragorn and the others. not that it isn't important to establish Aragorn's history and what-not, but the time could have been balanced better.

I read the Newsweek article... to see my speculations proven. No Scouring of the Shire at all. So is there any explanation as to what happened with Saruman (since we've heard his scenes were cut)?

Oh, and I'd just like to point out that the Scouring was one of my favorite parts of the book... all the Hobbits rising up!

jerseydevil · 11-26-2003, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Goldberry1
I read the Newsweek article... to see my speculations proven. No Scouring of the Shire at all. So is there any explanation as to what happened with Saruman (since we've heard his scenes were cut)?

Jackson said that people will just know that he was defeated. There will be no explanation - he just isn't there anymore.

Quote:

Oh, and I'd just like to point out that the Scouring was one of my favorite parts of the book... all the Hobbits rising up!

It is one of my favorite parts too. My favorite parts of the book is the first half of Fellowship and the end of RotK.

**Nurvingiel** · 11-26-2003, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jerseydevil
It's not going to be included in the RotK at all. Jackson never filmed the Scouring of the Shire - also what Frodo saw in the Mirror was an over-hyped action scene anyway.

Jackson's problem with the books - is that he seems to ignore the fact or is too stupid to know that the Hobbits are the central characters.

Oh, he read the books?

I'd say sidetracking from the Hobbits is overall my biggest beef with the movies. However, if he wants to do an adaptation of LotR, he has to use at least some semblance of the plot from the book. This is not just to avoid ticking off Book Purists, but also so the movie makes sense. And to avoid scenes in which one of the main characters falls off a cliff and is aroused by his horse. And by aroused I mean woken up.

Tuor of Gondolin · 11-30-2003, 05:57 PM

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
Oh, he read the books? I'd say sidetracking from the Hobbits is overall my biggest beef with the movies. However, if he wants to do an adaptation of LotR, he has to use at least some semblance of the plot from the book. This is not just to avoid ticking off Book Purists, but also so the movie makes sense.
________________________________________-

It's curious how cinematically and technically PJ's people worked to create a believable Middle-earth world, yet PJ repeatedly, as in the Scouring, dropped the ball on resolving essential story elements. For all their talk about story arcs, character development, etc. they messed up on resolving numerous story lines.
1---Not resolving Saruman's situation, either with "spiky wheel" or (better) in the Scouring of the Shire
2---Stubbornly holding to a narrow movie concept by excluding the Scouring, which, as stated above, would show hobbit growth and, it seems to me, be a more satisfactory story resolution. Surely cutting a bit of some battles for some of Scouring would be a more satisfactory "story arc." (and for nonbook viewers would be a final "surprise" when a rather degenerate Saruman is revealed as Sharkey). (besides, I like the hobbit joke of referring to "Sharkey's End."

3---By, at least in movie version, apparently not showing Faramir, Eowyn storyline, a way to resolve two more storylines.

Pj, Fan Walsh, and P. Boyens seem to take a very conservative view of film-making, fearing the audience would be bummed out by what they seem to view as an anti-climax. But why not take a chance? Imagine how they might have argued with Orson Welles that you can't make "Citizen Kane" like that. It defies movie conventions!

dawningoftime · 12-01-2003, 06:18 PM

I can understand why the scouring of the Shire is not included in the movie. What if it were my choice, which it's not, I would release RoTK as it is and make the scouring a direct to video or something to be included in the EE RoTK. The problem is that LoTR is probably 18 hours worth of movie if you were to do a direct translation of the book. PJ is probably doing the best job he can at staying true to the spirit of the book by doing these movies. In film making when doing adaptation you can't include everything. Emotionally it's asking a lot for the people watching to include the scouring because there has been this huge climax where they have gotten the ring destroyed and everything is as it should be in the world of men. Then to include another climax in the story that's asking a lot.

**Nurvingiel** · 12-01-2003, 07:54 PM

I suppose. You make a good argument anyway. But the Scouring is key, and not anti-climatic at all! It's important that all is as it should be in the world of Hobbits too! If he had included it, all this business with what to do with Saruman would be a non issue. LotR is probably the hardest book imaginable to translate into a movie.I understand his dilemma, but he knew what he was getting into from the start!

zinnite · 12-01-2003, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dawningoftime
I can understand why the scouring of the Shire is not included in the movie. What if it were my choice, which it's not, I would release RoTK as it is and make the scouring a direct to video or something to be included in the EE RoTK. The problem is that LoTR is probably 18 hours worth of movie if you were to do a direct translation of the book. PJ is probably doing the best job he can at staying true to the spirit of the book by doing these movies. In film making when doing adaptation you can't include everything. Emotionally it's asking a lot for the people watching to include the scouring because there has been this huge climax where they have gotten the ring destroyed and everything is as it should be in the world of men. Then to include another climax in the story that's asking a lot.

I always felt the Scouring to be THE climax to the whole story.

I do agree that it would have been impossible to include everything in the film. What ticks me off about PJ not doing the Scouring is that he had so much extra, pointless, unecessary stuff in the films, much of which didn't add much to the story or film (Warg battle, super-long Helm's Deep sequence, crumbling stairways, etc.). Cut even 10 minutes from Helm's Deep and then you have room for the Scouring; cut the superfluous junk and there is room for even more of the really good stuff (such as actual dialogue, more Sam and Frodo). How much of ROTK will be sacrificed so he can have a one-hour long battle scene?

And as for "everything is as it should be in the world of men"--LOTR is primarily about the Hobbits. The films started that way, but seemed to change focus about halfway through TTT

**Nurvingiel** · 12-02-2003, 02:16 AM

I agree with you Zinnite. I didn't really make this clear in my earlier post, but I feel that the Scouring is the denouement of Frodo's story arc, and another small climax with respect to Sam, Merry, and Pippin. It is essential in wrapping up the main plotline - the destruction of the Ring.

jerseydevil · 12-02-2003, 02:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
I agree with you Zinnite. I didn't really make this clear in my earlier post, but I feel that the Scouring is the denouement of Frodo's story arc, and another small climax with respect to Sam, Merry, and Pippin. It is essential in wrapping up the main plotline - the destruction of the Ring.

This is another failing with Jackson's movies. The movies don't revolve around the hobbits - they didn't even revolve around the hobbits in FotR. They revolve around the Ring and Aragorn. To jackson - the Hobbits are just side characters that just happen to be taking the ring to Mordor. But overall he hasn't concentrated on them at all.

**Nurvingiel** · 12-02-2003, 02:36 AM

I think you and I heartily agree on this, as two loyal Book Purists, even if we have a few minor disagreements elsewhere. Hm. That makes it sound like we argue instead of debate.

One very positive aspect of Jackson passing over the Scouring is:
He cannot possibly mangle it in any way! The beautiful images planted in our heads by Tolkien's magical words remain unsullied!

This is great. I'm not peeved at all by the omission of the Scouring now. I just regret that 1) I won't get to see beautiful Shire scenery, and 2) the movie won't make sense.

jerseydevil · 12-02-2003, 02:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
I think you and I heartily agree on this, as two loyal Book Purists, even if we have a few minor disagreements elsewhere. Hm. That makes it sound like we argue instead of debate.

One very positive aspect of Jackson passing over the Scouring is:
He cannot possibly mangle it in any way! The beautiful images planted in our heads by Tolkien's magical words remain unsullied!

This is great. I'm not peeved at all by the omission of the Scouring now. I just regret that 1) I won't get to see beautiful Shire scenery, and 2) the movie won't make sense.

Whereas for me - just confirms my feelings of Jackson and the movies the first time I saw the opening credits to Fellowship of the Rings. Sauron in what looked like a plastic suit with fake looking fire behind him.

**Nurvingiel** · 12-02-2003, 02:56 AM

Rejoice in the Non-Mangling of the Shire! Imagine how awful Lotho Sackville-Baggins would have been!

The books and the movies are 95% separate in my mind, a process which I've been working on since FotR first came out. Now, I have no problem making fun of the more humorous bits in the movies. Before, I felt bad about it - I would never make fun of Tolkien!

FotR - Prologue:

Sauron (kills Isildur's father): Muahaha!

Isildur: My name is Amigo Montoyez. You killed my father. Prepare to die. (cuts Sauron's finger off.)

Sauron: 'Tis but a flesh wound! Wait. (Explodes in a pretty blue mushroom could, leveling everyone except Isildur and Elrond.) Bwahaha! My spirit is a mushroom cloud! Even in death I... oh crap. (Sauron lacks a body. But his evil spirit remains.)

Elrond: Silly mortal! Destroy the Ring while you have the chance!

Isildur: No, I think I will seal the doom of all Middle-earth. Besides, it's pretty and shiny.

Elrond: Fine. I will do nothing, despite the fact that I'm a wise Elf with superior skill in arms. Have fun with the orcs!

Isildur: What was that last part? I was looking at my pretty shiny Ring... pretty... shiny......

Elrond: Oh nothing. I won't say anything about the obvious Boromir foreshadowing here. Oops! Now I'm going to try to get this awful green tarnish out of my armour. It makes me look like a refrigerator from the 70's!

Anyway, that was slightly off topic, but fun!

jerseydevil · 12-02-2003, 03:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
Rejoice in the Non-Mangling of the Shire! Imagine how awful Lotho Sackville-Baggins would have been!

The books and the movies are 95% separate in my mind, a process which I've been working on since FotR first came out. Now, I have no problem making fun of the more humorous bits in the movies. Before, I felt bad about it - I would never make fun of Tolkien!

See - I always had the two seperate in my mind. That's how I was able to make fun of Jackson and hate the movies to begin with.

I never felt bad about making fun of Jackson. YOu should see one of my early "Arwen goes to the Black gate and fights off the Nazgul single handedly and then takes the Ring herself to Mount Doom." scenarios I posted in one of the early FotR threads.

Quote:

Sauron: 'Tis but a flesh wound! Wait. (Explodes in a pretty blue mushroom could, leveling everyone except Isildur and Elrond.) Bwahaha! My spirit is a mushroom cloud! Even in death I... oh crap. (Sauron lacks a body. But his evil spirit remains.)

You noticed how Sauron went up into a "nuclear" explosion and yet Elrond and Isildur were fine - even though Isildur was right at the point of the explosion.

Quote:

Elrond: Fine. I will do nothing, despite the fact that I'm a wise Elf with superior skill in arms. Have fun with the orcs!

I see you also find it funny how Elrond does nothing about the Ring - even though HE knows that it's destruction is the only way to destroy Sauron (double

)

Dúnedain · 12-02-2003, 04:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
Isildur: My name is Amigo Montoyez. You killed my father. Prepare to die. (cuts Sauron's finger off.)

Nice try, but it's "Inigo Montoya" lol...

11-22-2003, 02:24 PM	#1
Dúnedain High King of Númenórë Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Númenórë <--United States of America Posts: 1,947	Scouring of the Shire... *SPOILERS may be included for some who don't know* Ok, as we all know by now that the scouring isn't going to be in the RotK. However, in FotR we saw some scenes of the scouring. Does anyone know if the scouring is planned for the Extended Edition of RotK? I would at least hope it would be... __________________ 'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen

11-30-2003, 05:57 PM	#10
Tuor of Gondolin Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southeastern Pennsylvania Posts: 1,215	Originally posted by Nurvingiel Oh, he read the books? I'd say sidetracking from the Hobbits is overall my biggest beef with the movies. However, if he wants to do an adaptation of LotR, he has to use at least some semblance of the plot from the book. This is not just to avoid ticking off Book Purists, but also so the movie makes sense. ________________________________________- It's curious how cinematically and technically PJ's people worked to create a believable Middle-earth world, yet PJ repeatedly, as in the Scouring, dropped the ball on resolving essential story elements. For all their talk about story arcs, character development, etc. they messed up on resolving numerous story lines. 1---Not resolving Saruman's situation, either with "spiky wheel" or (better) in the Scouring of the Shire 2---Stubbornly holding to a narrow movie concept by excluding the Scouring, which, as stated above, would show hobbit growth and, it seems to me, be a more satisfactory story resolution. Surely cutting a bit of some battles for some of Scouring would be a more satisfactory "story arc." (and for nonbook viewers would be a final "surprise" when a rather degenerate Saruman is revealed as Sharkey). (besides, I like the hobbit joke of referring to "Sharkey's End." 3---By, at least in movie version, apparently not showing Faramir, Eowyn storyline, a way to resolve two more storylines. Pj, Fan Walsh, and P. Boyens seem to take a very conservative view of film-making, fearing the audience would be bummed out by what they seem to view as an anti-climax. But why not take a chance? Imagine how they might have argued with Orson Welles that you can't make "Citizen Kane" like that. It defies movie conventions! __________________ Democrat for Kerry-Edwards! Take Back America Aure entuluva! Last edited by Tuor of Gondolin : 11-30-2003 at 06:00 PM.

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12-01-2003, 06:18 PM	#11
dawningoftime Enting Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 90	I can understand why the scouring of the Shire is not included in the movie. What if it were my choice, which it's not, I would release RoTK as it is and make the scouring a direct to video or something to be included in the EE RoTK. The problem is that LoTR is probably 18 hours worth of movie if you were to do a direct translation of the book. PJ is probably doing the best job he can at staying true to the spirit of the book by doing these movies. In film making when doing adaptation you can't include everything. Emotionally it's asking a lot for the people watching to include the scouring because there has been this huge climax where they have gotten the ring destroyed and everything is as it should be in the world of men. Then to include another climax in the story that's asking a lot.