Rangers and the Scouring of the Shire

afro-elf · 04-19-2003, 02:57 PM

If the Rangers were the protectors of Eriador how did the Scouring of the Shire happen?

MME says this:

Quote:

It thus seems most likely that Rangers constituted only a small part of the male population of the Dunedain of Arnor. Elrond was not wrong to say there were now few Dunedain left, but they probably numbered in the thousands, rather than the hundreds. When Frodo sat upon Amon Hen and beheld visions of a world moving toward war, he saw that "the Misty Mountains were crawling like anthills: orcs were issuing out of a thousand holes". Most of those orcs probably attacked the Beornings and Woodmen, or Lorien. But some of them had to turn toward Eriador. And it would have fallen to the Dunedain to defend Eriador against invasion. In such a time of need, the Rangers would have been called back to defend the homeland and patrol the frontier. Halbarad's ability to muster a company of Rangers would therefore have been hampered not by fewness of men, but by the necessity to leave his people (and Rivendell) defended.

Your thoughts.

Laurus Nobilis · 04-19-2003, 03:09 PM

If I didn't mess up my timelines, Saruman's men could take over the Shire because the Rangers were following Aragorn to the war at the moment.

Elvellyn · 04-19-2003, 03:10 PM

Well, I would think that most of the Rangers were off doing other things at the time.

Edit: Oops! Laurus beat me to it!

afro-elf · 04-19-2003, 03:13 PM

See my above EDIT.

To: LN
Halbarad mentions that 30 was all he could gather at haste.

So there are more than 30 rangers.

Others may have been defending the Eriador from Orc's of the Misty Mountains.

afro-elf · 04-19-2003, 03:16 PM

When did the Scouring of the Shire begin?

Was there realistically enough time?

***azalea*** · 04-20-2003, 02:36 PM

Technically the Scouring didn't start until Frodo and Co. returned. But the infiltration had begun a while back, probably before Frodo left even. I think that it must have started around the time Saruman began his army, which was roughly sometime between the Long-Expected Party and Gollum's escape from Mirkwood (I'm doing a general guessing here). So my guess is that around 1318, Saruman started sending men to barter with those in the Southfarthing for pipe-weed. As the trade began to flourish (unbeknownst to anyone important, ie, Gandalf, Aragorn, Frodo, etc.), Saruman started having the men put pressure on certain hobbits or to start making corrupt deals, which eventually turned into delas that couldn't be refused (as of course in the case of Lotho), and eventually it snowballed into what we see happening at the time of the return.
So in answer to your question, I think that the Rangers protecting the Shire were not necessarily always in a ring arond the Shire standing guard, it was more of a general watchfulness. And at the time of the first dealings, Saruman was considered a friend, and so there would ahve been no reason to be suspicious. The Rangers would not really know what was going on inside of the Shire as far as who is making what deal w/ who, and since it wasn't under suspicion, there was no need (as far as they saw) for intervention -- IOW, if so-and-so agent of Saruman made a deal with so and so hobbit to do so and so, the Rangers wouldn't know about it, because they of course weren't residents, just a "border patrol." Later, the Rangers were probably so focused on the fighting going on all over the place, that they wouldn't have noticed the changes taking place in the Shire, esp. since the hobbits were basically going along with it, too scared or were put in jail (thus unable to go for aid outside of the Shire). Even if they could have gone for aid, your average Shire hobbit was so sheltered from the outside that he/she wouldn't know where to go, and certainly wouldn't have known about the Rangers. It is really an ingenious plan on the parrt of Saruman, to infiltrate peacefully (well, by force, but knowing there would be no fighting, and that by having Lotho as the "Chief," it would appear to all be "legal").

EDIT: Okay, now I've actually looked in the book, and according to Farmer Cotton, Lotho had been selling pipe-weed outside of the Shire for a year or two before Frodo left, somewhat secretively, and then after they left, he started selling it by the cartload, overtly.

Laurus Nobilis · 04-20-2003, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Halbarad mentions that 30 was all he could gather at haste.

Hmm, I didn't remember that.

Azalea's post made me think about Bill and his "strange friends" in Bree- Saruman had obviously started to put his plans into action long before, then. I guess Azalea's right about what happened.

afro-elf · 04-20-2003, 10:23 PM

Azalea, thanks.

Spock · 04-21-2003, 07:19 AM

No matter how I spell it,I'm glad to see she hit it right on the head. Done and well too.

***azalea*** · 04-21-2003, 01:56 PM

Thank you

! It's nice to know people actually understood my blathering!

BeardofPants · 04-21-2003, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by azalea
EDIT: Okay, now I've actually looked in the book, and according to Farmer Cotton, Lotho had been selling pipe-weed outside of the Shire for a year or two before Frodo left, and then after they left, he started selling it by the cartload, more overtly than before.

MORE overtly? Guess I'll have to read it again, because I would have thought he would be less overt?

Anglorfin · 04-21-2003, 11:53 PM

In my own words, most of this comes from UT . . .

Saruman's dealings with the Shire were at first only centered around pipe-weed, he felt he must do that secretly so he could avoid the scorn of Gandalf. He had a considerable secret network set up for the trading of pipeweed and he found that a lot of the rich plantation owners in the Southfarthing were easy to persuade. Because Saruman's dealings were benevolent with the Shirefolk at first, he was in prime position to exploit the knowledge he had gained of the Shire if he later needed to.

The reason for Saruman's secret dealings in trade is mostly due to the fact that Saruman had openly scoffed at Gandalf for smoking pipe-weed, but later took a liking to it himself. At this point Saruman was not yet totally evil, but he had bad relations with Gandalf from the first, and would do whatever he could to keep his little habbit secret from Gandalf because the shame for him would have been too great.

afro-elf · 04-22-2003, 03:43 AM

Thanks

***azalea*** · 04-22-2003, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BeardofPants
MORE overtly? Guess I'll have to read it again, because I would have thought he would be less overt?

I worded that poorly -- I should have said "less secretively than before." Or just left out the words "more...than before." I'm going to edit it.

Okay, that should read more clearly.

Cirdan · 04-23-2003, 10:17 AM

Gandalf tells the Hobbits that they must deal with the Shire. He seems to know there is something going on. Yet he leaves the "scouring" to the Hobbits because the corruption has spread to the Hobbits themselves. I think then that the "Scouring" was an internal affair, so to speak, and had to be dealt with accordingly. It would not have been appropriate for the Dunedain to intervene in the matter, except in the case of Saruman, who used an alias and kept a low profile.

***azalea*** · 04-23-2003, 01:47 PM

And in that vein, it could be that because the "invaders" were just a bunch of ruffians, and not true warriors, it would have been an unfair fight, basically just a slaughter. AND it is much more meaningful in that it is the residents of the land fighting for their own homes, etc. The invaders would find this more of a meaningful defense than if "foreigners" were to fight them off, meaning they could just come back and do it again when they weren't looking if they wanted. Plus, the Shire folk learned how to defend themselves.

(Hate to cross over, but this is why I think establishing democracy in Iraq will be much more difficult when done by "us," rather than, say, if the Iraqi people had risen up and done it themselves. Anything made or done by oneself is treated as more valuable by the owner than something that has been given.)

afro-elf · 04-23-2003, 09:31 PM

Here is some more info:

Quote:

Somewhere in the Tale of Years there is a comment that the Rangers had noticed the interest of servants of Saruman in the Shire, but as he was still recognized as an ally, they did not block them. This occurred somewhere in the years immediately before the quest.

Snowdog · 04-24-2003, 12:18 PM

I think the 30 that Halbarad could muster were ones that received and could ride on little notice. the fact that the north would not be left completely undefended means some Rangers most likely stayed along with the elves of Rivendell.

And Sarumann being an 'ally', was not watched too much by the Rangers, thoiugh as quoted above, they would have noticed the 'commerce' between Isengard and the Shire as they did watch the Sarn Ford. There is a part in the books that mentions the Rangers could not stand against the Black Riders and prevent them from entering the Shire.

Edit: Maybe I'm dense in the acronyms of Tolkiens books, but which one does MME refer to??

04-19-2003, 03:09 PM	#2
Laurus Nobilis Enting Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina Posts: 73	If I didn't mess up my timelines, Saruman's men could take over the Shire because the Rangers were following Aragorn to the war at the moment. __________________ "...So the essential Quest started at once. But I met a lot of things on the way that astonished me. Tom Bombadil I knew already; but I had never been to Bree. Strider sitting in the corner at the inn was a shock, and I had no more idea who he was than had Frodo. The Mines of Moria had been a mere name; and of Lothlórien no word had reached my mortal ears till I came there. Far away I knew there were the Horse-lords on the confines of an ancient Kingdom of Men, but Fangorn Forest was an unforeseen adventure." ~ J. R. R. Tolkien

04-19-2003, 03:10 PM	#3
Elvellyn The Redneck Elf Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: In a house Posts: 539	Well, I would think that most of the Rangers were off doing other things at the time. Edit: Oops! Laurus beat me to it! __________________ Oliphants make great pets.

04-19-2003, 03:13 PM	#4
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	See my above EDIT. To: LN Halbarad mentions that 30 was all he could gather at haste. So there are more than 30 rangers. Others may have been defending the Eriador from Orc's of the Misty Mountains. __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. Last edited by afro-elf : 04-19-2003 at 03:14 PM.

04-19-2003, 03:16 PM	#5
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	When did the Scouring of the Shire begin? Was there realistically enough time? __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

04-20-2003, 10:23 PM	#8
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	Azalea, thanks. __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

04-20-2003, 02:36 PM	#6
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	Technically the Scouring didn't start until Frodo and Co. returned. But the infiltration had begun a while back, probably before Frodo left even. I think that it must have started around the time Saruman began his army, which was roughly sometime between the Long-Expected Party and Gollum's escape from Mirkwood (I'm doing a general guessing here). So my guess is that around 1318, Saruman started sending men to barter with those in the Southfarthing for pipe-weed. As the trade began to flourish (unbeknownst to anyone important, ie, Gandalf, Aragorn, Frodo, etc.), Saruman started having the men put pressure on certain hobbits or to start making corrupt deals, which eventually turned into delas that couldn't be refused (as of course in the case of Lotho), and eventually it snowballed into what we see happening at the time of the return. So in answer to your question, I think that the Rangers protecting the Shire were not necessarily always in a ring arond the Shire standing guard, it was more of a general watchfulness. And at the time of the first dealings, Saruman was considered a friend, and so there would ahve been no reason to be suspicious. The Rangers would not really know what was going on inside of the Shire as far as who is making what deal w/ who, and since it wasn't under suspicion, there was no need (as far as they saw) for intervention -- IOW, if so-and-so agent of Saruman made a deal with so and so hobbit to do so and so, the Rangers wouldn't know about it, because they of course weren't residents, just a "border patrol." Later, the Rangers were probably so focused on the fighting going on all over the place, that they wouldn't have noticed the changes taking place in the Shire, esp. since the hobbits were basically going along with it, too scared or were put in jail (thus unable to go for aid outside of the Shire). Even if they could have gone for aid, your average Shire hobbit was so sheltered from the outside that he/she wouldn't know where to go, and certainly wouldn't have known about the Rangers. It is really an ingenious plan on the parrt of Saruman, to infiltrate peacefully (well, by force, but knowing there would be no fighting, and that by having Lotho as the "Chief," it would appear to all be "legal"). EDIT: Okay, now I've actually looked in the book, and according to Farmer Cotton, Lotho had been selling pipe-weed outside of the Shire for a year or two before Frodo left, somewhat secretively, and then after they left, he started selling it by the cartload, overtly.

04-21-2003, 07:19 AM	#9
Spock An enigma in a conundrum Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 6,476	Azalea awarded 50 Hogworth points No matter how I spell it,I'm glad to see she hit it right on the head. Done and well too. __________________ Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

04-21-2003, 01:56 PM	#10
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	Thank you ! It's nice to know people actually understood my blathering!

04-21-2003, 11:53 PM	#12
Anglorfin Alasailon Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: college Posts: 861	In my own words, most of this comes from UT . . . Saruman's dealings with the Shire were at first only centered around pipe-weed, he felt he must do that secretly so he could avoid the scorn of Gandalf. He had a considerable secret network set up for the trading of pipeweed and he found that a lot of the rich plantation owners in the Southfarthing were easy to persuade. Because Saruman's dealings were benevolent with the Shirefolk at first, he was in prime position to exploit the knowledge he had gained of the Shire if he later needed to. The reason for Saruman's secret dealings in trade is mostly due to the fact that Saruman had openly scoffed at Gandalf for smoking pipe-weed, but later took a liking to it himself. At this point Saruman was not yet totally evil, but he had bad relations with Gandalf from the first, and would do whatever he could to keep his little habbit secret from Gandalf because the shame for him would have been too great. __________________ "and then this hobbit was walking, and then this elf jumped out of a bush and totally flipped out on him while wailing on his guitar." "Anglorfin was tall and straight; his hair was of shining gold, his face fair and young and fearless and full of anger; his eyes were bright and keen, and his voice like music; on his brow sat wisdom, and in his hand was great skill."

04-22-2003, 03:43 AM	#13
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	Thanks __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

04-23-2003, 10:17 AM	#15
Cirdan Elf Lord of the Grey Havens Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: somewhere else Posts: 2,381	Gandalf tells the Hobbits that they must deal with the Shire. He seems to know there is something going on. Yet he leaves the "scouring" to the Hobbits because the corruption has spread to the Hobbits themselves. I think then that the "Scouring" was an internal affair, so to speak, and had to be dealt with accordingly. It would not have been appropriate for the Dunedain to intervene in the matter, except in the case of Saruman, who used an alias and kept a low profile. __________________ There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary

04-23-2003, 01:47 PM	#16
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	And in that vein, it could be that because the "invaders" were just a bunch of ruffians, and not true warriors, it would have been an unfair fight, basically just a slaughter. AND it is much more meaningful in that it is the residents of the land fighting for their own homes, etc. The invaders would find this more of a meaningful defense than if "foreigners" were to fight them off, meaning they could just come back and do it again when they weren't looking if they wanted. Plus, the Shire folk learned how to defend themselves. (Hate to cross over, but this is why I think establishing democracy in Iraq will be much more difficult when done by "us," rather than, say, if the Iraqi people had risen up and done it themselves. Anything made or done by oneself is treated as more valuable by the owner than something that has been given.)

04-24-2003, 12:18 PM	#18
Snowdog Dúnedain Ranger of the North Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: The Ruins of Arnor Posts: 892	I think the 30 that Halbarad could muster were ones that received and could ride on little notice. the fact that the north would not be left completely undefended means some Rangers most likely stayed along with the elves of Rivendell. And Sarumann being an 'ally', was not watched too much by the Rangers, thoiugh as quoted above, they would have noticed the 'commerce' between Isengard and the Shire as they did watch the Sarn Ford. There is a part in the books that mentions the Rangers could not stand against the Black Riders and prevent them from entering the Shire. Edit: Maybe I'm dense in the acronyms of Tolkiens books, but which one does MME refer to?? __________________ "I am an outlaw, I was born an outlaw's son. The highway is my legacy, on the highway I will run." Last edited by Snowdog : 04-24-2003 at 12:22 PM.