The Two Trees

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 10-05-2001, 11:55 AM

Why couldn't Yavanna make two more trees after the first trees were destroyed? She wanted the light in the Silmarils to save them, but where did that light come from to begin with?

Finmandos12 · 10-05-2001, 01:15 PM

She said that there were certain things someone could only do once.(ie Feanor making the Silmarils.)

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 10-05-2001, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Finmandos12
She said that there were certain things someone could only do once.(ie Feanor making the Silmarils.)

Yes,and the Teleri said that about their ships when Feanor wanted them, but why could they only be made once? I can see this only happening once with the Silmarils. They entailed taking something from something else to complete their creation and beauty, such as the light of the Trees. Plus they were made by an Elf, not a Vala. Why couldn't Yavanna do it again?

Ñólendil · 10-05-2001, 06:56 PM

That was a reason in itself. She simply could not, it was something she could only accomplish once. Ever read or seen a bad sequel?

galadriel · 10-05-2001, 11:48 PM

I think creating things is probably much more intuitive and improvisational for the Valar. Their creations are not so much planned as inspired. Therefore, recreating the Two Trees would be practically impossible. It's like accidentally deleting an essay you're writing for school and having to rewrite it. Sure, the second essay might be okay, but it will never be the same, no matter how hard you work on it.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 10-06-2001, 02:02 AM

It could turn out better. You never know.

galadriel · 10-06-2001, 11:21 AM

Maybe they would be better, or maybe not. Still, Yavanna clearly says,

Quote:

Even for those who are mightiest under Iluvatar there is some work that they may accomplish once, and once only. The Light of the Trees I brought into being, and within Ea I can do so never again.

I don't think this means that she couldn't create new Trees. But if she recreated them, they would be different, for better or worse. Really, whether they had two Trees or a sun or a moon didn't matter, it was the nostalgic value that counted. That's my opinion, anyway.

Selwythe · 10-06-2001, 03:07 PM

In my opinion. she was unable to create new trees also because she was overcome with sadness and grief. When she planted the trees, it was when all was fair. After they were gone, she could not concentrate on her song without being distracted by the past majesty of the Two Trees.

Here, let's say you built the WTC single-handedly. It gets destroyed in an hour. Will you rebuild it just like that?

Very bad example, but you get my point.

Ñólendil · 10-06-2001, 05:10 PM

galadriel, making, makings, remaking are the terms we should use. The Valar could not create.

galadriel · 10-06-2001, 08:36 PM

Ok, ok, ok, you're right, Inoldonil. But you know what I mean.

Good point about Yavanna's grief. I'm not sure if that's the only reason, but it's certainly a valid one.

Ñólendil · 10-06-2001, 08:45 PM

Of course I know what you mean, but it's far more fun to hobble over to you with a hunch in my back, poke you in the ribs with a stick and say 'that's not right! What are you doing?! You had better change that!'

galadriel · 10-07-2001, 02:40 PM

I know what you mean. I love proofreading my friends' homework, finding a mistake, and bugging them about it. major ego boost

easterlinge · 10-07-2001, 08:59 PM

They're at least partly works of art and creativity.

I mean, can Leonardo da Vinci paint two Mona Lisas? It just would not be the same.

Grendel · 10-08-2001, 09:54 PM

The Silmarillion made it quite clear why elves and dwarves could not create certain items again. When Feanor created the silmarils he put a large part of himself in them. The same was true of the boats at the havens. Such items could not be re-made.

The history was more vague for the valar and mayar, but the same reasoning is suggested. When Sauron forged the One Ring, he put a great piece of himself into the ring. When the ring was hacked from his hand and taken away, his spirit was forced to flee the body. He could not make the ring again. I suspect this is why Yavannah could not re-make the trees.

Another reason might be that "the song of creation" was in a certain "verse" when the trees were made. Perhaps there was a limited window of opportunity to make the trees. Once the song moved on, the ability to ever make their like again was gone.

Grendel

easterlinge · 10-09-2001, 02:31 AM

Good point, Grendel. I hadn't taken into account Iluvatar's Theme and the Ainurs' Music. Some creations may not be repeatable after a certain time.

Kirinki54 · 10-15-2001, 09:27 AM

Perhaps the required resources were no longer there? Yavanna clearly had spent her recreative powers in this regard, and that might be true also of the primordial raw materials and energies that she used. Whatever these where...
This combined with the fact that the Trees lived on in a sense; with the making of the Sun and the Moon the world had taken a linear step forward and it might not be possible nor desirable to recreate new Trees, according to the themes of the Music.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 10-15-2001, 10:17 AM

I thought that the Valar could not create, but she did create the Two Trees. Right?

Kirinki54 · 10-15-2001, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I thought that the Valar could not create, but she did create the Two Trees. Right?

Right, but this is tricky. Some Valar like Aule and Yavanna seemed to create a lot of things, but perhaps the real creation was in the third version of the Music, thus created by Eru and recreated by the Valar.
More views, please!

Wayfarer · 10-15-2001, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Even for those who are mightiest under Iluvatar there is some work that they may accomplish once, and once only. The Light of the Trees I brought into being, and within Ea I can do so never again.

within Ea

I think that each of the valar (and lesser creatures too) had a share of power. They can invest that power however the choose, but they must do so carefully or it will be used up (like what happened to morgoth) When ea is remade, those that served illuvatar will gain that power back in spades.

Kirinki54 · 10-18-2001, 04:06 PM

within Ea

I think that each of the valar (and lesser creatures too) had a share of power. They can invest that power however the choose, but they must do so carefully or it will be used up (like what happened to morgoth) When ea is remade, those that served illuvatar will gain that power back in spades. [/B][/QUOTE]

Is it prophesized that Ea will be remade after the Last Battle?

10-05-2001, 11:55 AM	#1
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	The Two Trees Why couldn't Yavanna make two more trees after the first trees were destroyed? She wanted the light in the Silmarils to save them, but where did that light come from to begin with?

10-05-2001, 01:15 PM	#2
Finmandos12 Elven Warrior Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Tampa Posts: 327	She said that there were certain things someone could only do once.(ie Feanor making the Silmarils.) __________________ The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

10-05-2001, 06:56 PM	#4
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	That was a reason in itself. She simply could not, it was something she could only accomplish once. Ever read or seen a bad sequel? __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

10-05-2001, 11:48 PM	#5
galadriel Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: a castle made of clouds Posts: 459	I think creating things is probably much more intuitive and improvisational for the Valar. Their creations are not so much planned as inspired. Therefore, recreating the Two Trees would be practically impossible. It's like accidentally deleting an essay you're writing for school and having to rewrite it. Sure, the second essay might be okay, but it will never be the same, no matter how hard you work on it. __________________ Human kind cannot bear very much reality. dreamflower - for all things Lady Galadriel

10-06-2001, 03:07 PM	#8
Selwythe Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Arcadia, CA Posts: 221	In my opinion. she was unable to create new trees also because she was overcome with sadness and grief. When she planted the trees, it was when all was fair. After they were gone, she could not concentrate on her song without being distracted by the past majesty of the Two Trees. Here, let's say you built the WTC single-handedly. It gets destroyed in an hour. Will you rebuild it just like that? Very bad example, but you get my point. __________________ If I say you have a beautiful body, will you hold it against me?

10-06-2001, 02:02 AM	#6
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	It could turn out better. You never know.

10-06-2001, 05:10 PM	#9
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	galadriel, making, makings, remaking are the terms we should use. The Valar could not create. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

10-06-2001, 08:36 PM	#10
galadriel Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: a castle made of clouds Posts: 459	Ok, ok, ok, you're right, Inoldonil. But you know what I mean. Good point about Yavanna's grief. I'm not sure if that's the only reason, but it's certainly a valid one. __________________ Human kind cannot bear very much reality. dreamflower - for all things Lady Galadriel

10-06-2001, 08:45 PM	#11
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	Of course I know what you mean, but it's far more fun to hobble over to you with a hunch in my back, poke you in the ribs with a stick and say 'that's not right! What are you doing?! You had better change that!' __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

10-07-2001, 02:40 PM	#12
galadriel Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: a castle made of clouds Posts: 459	I know what you mean. I love proofreading my friends' homework, finding a mistake, and bugging them about it. major ego boost __________________ Human kind cannot bear very much reality. dreamflower - for all things Lady Galadriel

10-07-2001, 08:59 PM	#13
easterlinge Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Farthest Khand, the darkest East... Posts: 442	They're at least partly works of art and creativity. I mean, can Leonardo da Vinci paint two Mona Lisas? It just would not be the same.

10-08-2001, 09:54 PM	#14
Grendel Hobbit Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: NJ Posts: 26	Inability of Valar to re-create The Silmarillion made it quite clear why elves and dwarves could not create certain items again. When Feanor created the silmarils he put a large part of himself in them. The same was true of the boats at the havens. Such items could not be re-made. The history was more vague for the valar and mayar, but the same reasoning is suggested. When Sauron forged the One Ring, he put a great piece of himself into the ring. When the ring was hacked from his hand and taken away, his spirit was forced to flee the body. He could not make the ring again. I suspect this is why Yavannah could not re-make the trees. Another reason might be that "the song of creation" was in a certain "verse" when the trees were made. Perhaps there was a limited window of opportunity to make the trees. Once the song moved on, the ability to ever make their like again was gone. Grendel

10-09-2001, 02:31 AM	#15
easterlinge Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Farthest Khand, the darkest East... Posts: 442	Good point, Grendel. I hadn't taken into account Iluvatar's Theme and the Ainurs' Music. Some creations may not be repeatable after a certain time.

10-15-2001, 09:27 AM	#16
Kirinki54 Elven Warrior Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: European Union Posts: 463	Perhaps the required resources were no longer there? Yavanna clearly had spent her recreative powers in this regard, and that might be true also of the primordial raw materials and energies that she used. Whatever these where... This combined with the fact that the Trees lived on in a sense; with the making of the Sun and the Moon the world had taken a linear step forward and it might not be possible nor desirable to recreate new Trees, according to the themes of the Music.

10-15-2001, 10:17 AM	#17
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	I thought that the Valar could not create, but she did create the Two Trees. Right?

10-18-2001, 04:06 PM	#20
Kirinki54 Elven Warrior Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: European Union Posts: 463	within Ea I think that each of the valar (and lesser creatures too) had a share of power. They can invest that power however the choose, but they must do so carefully or it will be used up (like what happened to morgoth) When ea is remade, those that served illuvatar will gain that power back in spades. [/B][/QUOTE] Is it prophesized that Ea will be remade after the Last Battle?

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
The Light of the Trees	Beren3000	The Silmarillion	11	11-03-2010 11:08 AM
The power of the Light of the Two Trees	Sister Golden Hair	The Silmarillion	12	06-13-2004 05:06 PM
The Theme of Trees	Nurvingiel	Lord of the Rings Books	37	06-10-2003 12:46 PM
The Shepards of the Trees are upon me	Ripper73	Lord of the Rings Movies	6	02-04-2003 12:39 PM
Rekindling of The Two Trees of Valinor?	Sminty_Smeagol	Middle Earth	5	09-06-2002 09:34 PM