Dunedain, Dunadan?

[Tig]

Can somebody better explain these terms, I never even heard of Dunadan until I started reading the book, but Dunedain is spelt quite clearly in the movies as well as in the book. Are they different, or variations? I know Dunadan refers to Aragorn, but Aragorn alone?

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Tig

Can somebody better explain these terms, I never even heard of Dunadan until I started reading the book, but Dunedain is spelt quite clearly in the movies as well as in the book. Are they different, or variations? I know Dunadan refers to Aragorn, but Aragorn alone?

Dunedain is the plural form, so it refers to the whole group of people. Dunadan is the singular form and is also one of Aragorn's (many) names.

[Gordis]

I can only add that "Dunadan" means "Man of the West"
"Dun" - west (also see it in Dunland, Dunharrow)
"Adan" - man
"Edain" in "Dunedain" means Men

[Spock]

Originally Posted by Tig

Can somebody better explain these terms, I never even heard of Dunadan until I started reading the book, but Dunedain is spelt quite clearly in the movies as well as in the book. Are they different, or variations? I know Dunadan refers to Aragorn, but Aragorn alone?

According to the Complete Guide to Tolkeins Middle Earth :

The Dunadan, refers to Aragorn only.

The Dunedain, is partly explained as: Men of the Edain who at the beginning of the 2nd Age sailed to Numernor and their descendants. After the fall of Numenor, the Dunedain survived only in the Faithful and the Black Numenoreans of Umbar. Two Kingdoms were founded by the Faithful, Gondor and Arnor and after the death of Elendil (SA 3441) the Dunedain were split into two groups: those of the North and those of Gondor.
....The Dundedain were also known as the Men of Westernesse, the Men of the West and the Numenoreans.

....there's bunches more but this will give you a clearer idea of the differences in the terms.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Spock

According to the Complete Guide to Tolkeins Middle Earth :

The Dunadan, refers to Aragorn only.

‘Halt! Halt! Who rides in Rohan?’
…
‘Halbarad Dúnadan, Ranger of the North I am.’

Aragorn was ‘The Dúnadan,’ as Bilbo put it, probably in much the same way that the King of England might be called by another sovereign “My brother England,” or could be referred to by almost anyone as simply “England.”

The Númenórean monarchy is strikingly similar in many respects to the Anglo-Saxon and Norman monarchies and their successors until the English Civil War. The monarch had the final say, but he ruled with a council, and he was bound by the “ancient laws.” Even William the Conqueror at his coronation swore to uphold the “ancient laws.” Each of these monarchs was in his turn “England,” “The Englishman.”

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I can only add that "Dunadan" means "Man of the West"
"Dun" - west (also see it in Dunland, Dunharrow)...'

Elvish dûn 'West' is different from these other examples though. Dunland contains the English adjective dun 'dark, dusky, dull-hued', and Dunharrow is a modernization of an Old English form, for 'the heathen fane on the hillside'.

In Dunharrow we have Old English dún I would say, 'down, height, hill, mountain', dún-ælf 'mountain elf' for example.

[Gordis]

WAW - thank you, Galin. I didn't know it!

Welcome to the Moot - it is great that you have found your way here. You are one of the most knowledgeable persons I know and your input is always greatly appreciated.
Stay with us!

[Galin]

Well that's one of the nicest welcomes I've ever had on the interweb, thanks Gordis. I recognize a couple other names from 'elsewhere' too, assuming the same people are behind them anyway.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I'm the same DPR, Galin. I add my welcome, as well.

[Varnafindë]

Varna appears 'elsewhere' as well - I even use the same avatar on all boards where I post as Varna.

Welcome, Galin!

[Galin]

Hello DPR and 'Varna'! Yes I guessed it was the same you (two).

I suppose I should add something sort of topical. I still pronounce Dúnedain incorrectly at times, having 'learned' it wrong in my reckless youth.

I've no excuse really. But I do go without supper when it happens.

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by Galin

I suppose I should add something sort of topical. I still pronounce Dúnedain incorrectly at times, having 'learned' it wrong in my reckless youth.

I've no excuse really. But I do go without supper when it happens.

I have never learned it, either right or wrong - can you describe the difference?

And since you are asked to tell us about the wrong version, you are not obliged to go without supper tonight for doing so

[Galin]

Sure, the u (long in this case) should be 'oo' (like in 'Toorin' too), and ai has the sound of English eye.

In my youth I used to say the u like in English cut, with incorrect Dane instead of dine too.


I'll still skip supper but add a late lunch

[Varnafindë]

Thank you!
I'll have no problems with my supper then - I've always pronounced it right. It's the natural way of pronouncing it, seen from a Norwegian point of view. Norse influence on Tolkien, possibly?

Enjoy your late lunch

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Aragorn was ‘The Dúnadan,’ as Bilbo put it, probably in much the same way that the King of England might be called by another sovereign “My brother England,” or could be referred to by almost anyone as simply “England.”

The Númenórean monarchy is strikingly similar in many respects to the Anglo-Saxon and Norman monarchies and their successors until the English Civil War. The monarch had the final say, but he ruled with a council, and he was bound by the “ancient laws.” Even William the Conqueror at his coronation swore to uphold the “ancient laws.” Each of these monarchs was in his turn “England,” “The Englishman.”

Another example is my remote ancester, Robert Bruce, king of Scotland - he was called Robert THE Bruce when he was head of the clan.

And I add my welcome to you, Galin!

[the insane one]

may i also add that in different editions of lord of the rings, dunadan is also spelt differently, is this indicating to an overall group of people or just one person? after all dunadan is elvish whereas dunedain is numenorian

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by the insane one

may i also add that in different editions of lord of the rings, dunadan is also spelt differently, is this indicating to an overall group of people or just one person? after all dunadan is elvish whereas dunedain is numenorian

Why not read the thread above?

"Adan" - means man, singular
"Edain" in "Dunedain" means Men, plural.
Both words are Sindarin -Elvish

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Why not read the thread above?

"Adan" - means man, singular
"Edain" in "Dunedain" means Men, plural.
Both words are Sindarin -Elvish

These are called inflections: signals that the word is singular or plural; male, female, or neutral; or that it is a subject, an object, or serves some other function; or represents action, being, or some other existence or transience; and so forth. The Wikipedia article is decent. (Wikipedia is not a reliable source of information, but it is probably a good start for many subjects). Verbs are conjugated; nouns are declined. (In English, most declensions have been lost, but they remain in the pronouns: e.g., I, thou, he/she/it; we, you, they; and I, me, mine; & cet.)

Tolkien knew all about inflection: it was not lost in Anglo-Saxon literature, but during the late Middle-Ages and Renaissance. Shakespeare and the King James Bible use few declensions outside pronouns; most educated English speakers – those with a real mastery of the language – can still read the original Chaucer, which is generally regarded as the first true English literature; but earlier documents require either scholarship or familiarity with a more modern version of the text. For example, declensions remain in Wycliff’s English translation of the Bible in the late 1300s, the first such translation into English from Latin, the old vernacular:

In the firste made God of nouyt heuene and erthe. The erthe forsothe was veyn with ynne and void, and derknessis weren vpon the face of the see; and the Spiryt of God was born vpon the watrys. And God seide, Be maad liyt; and maad is liyt. And God sawy liyt, that it was good, and deuydid liyt fro derknessis; and clepide liyt, day, and derknessis, nyyt. And maad is euen and moru, o day. Seide forsothe God, Be maad a firmament in the myddel of watres, and dyuyde it watres fro watrys. And God made the firmament, and dyuydid watris that weren vndre the firmament fro thes that weren aboue the fermament; and it is maad so. And God clepide the firmament, heuene. And maad is euen and moru, the secounde day. God forsothe seide, Gadrid be watris, the whiche ben vndre heuene, in to o place, and apere the drie; and maad it is so. And God clepid the drie, erthe; and the gaderyngis of watris he clepide, sees. And God saiy that it was good; and saith, Burion the erthe grene erbe and makynge seed, and appletre makynge fruyt after his kynd, whos seed ben in hym silf, vpon the erthe; and maad it is so. And the erthe brouyte forthe grene erbe and makynge seed aftre his kynde, and tree makynge fruyt, and echon hauynge seed after his special kynde. And God saiy that it were good.

Wycliff is already using recognizable English, even to modern eyes and ears: but it is definitely a great-grandfather version of our language, and older than Chaucer’s English, for instance.

Inflections are retained in many modern languages with which you may be familiar: modern German, for instance, declines the ends of nouns, as well as pronouns, adjectives, and articles (such as der/die/das (the in English) and ein/eine/eines (a/an in English – note the very mild inflection of a/an to account for any leading vowels in the following noun, a practice retained from French rather than Anglo-Saxon)) used to describe them. The situation in older languages, such as Latin (with which I am familiar) and Greek (with which I am much less familiar: like the hapless and ill-educated Casca, it is Greek to me), is far more involved; and in very old languages, (perhaps with Sanskrit?), I believe it can be rather complicated, although I am insufficiently familiar with very old languages to provide any useful guidance.

Tolkien discusses inflection in passing in “Appendix F” of the Return of the King. Language is one of the driving motivations for his writing Lord of the Rings, Silmarillion, and the whole corpus of his work. There are whole websites dedicated to the in-depth study and development of Tolkien’s linguistic pursuits, as well as a scholarly journals, such as Parma Eldalamberon.

If you meant the difference between dúnadan and dunadan, however, that is merely punctuation.

As an interesting aside to this discussion, Tolkien noted at one point that various characters in Lord of the Rings spoke in various ways. The hobbits, for instance, noticed that Aragorn began speaking like the Bree-folk, but as their first meeting with him wore on (and he lowered his guard, perhaps), his speech began to change. Denethor and his sons spoke a more ancient form of the common tongue than the rustic version used by the hobbits; and the Elves spoke in an even more ancient way. I take it that the speed of changes accustomed to human languages were retarded by the presence of the Elves and the Rings of Power, which worked against the changes wrought by Time; but even Elvish languages changed: the Noldor deliberately altered the name of Fëanor’s mother from Þerindë to Serindë (Þ is the Anglo-Saxon letter thorn, pronounced th-), which Fëanor took as a personal affront, setting him into a snit with his relatives; while wider changes also took place between the Noldor and the Vanyar, the “Light Elves” of Valinor, who spoke an even more ancient form of Elvish than Noldorin Quenya; and the Sindar, who spoke a version of the old language that had been highly modified in the more malleable environment of Middle-earth, Sindarin.