Interesting 1 on 1's - Page 3

Lord Manafirogh · 12-26-2003, 05:59 PM

Yeah thats why i said no1 in the third age could beat him in single combat. and of course he was strong other wise any warrior would have killed him easly in the second age.

Captain Stern · 12-26-2003, 11:32 PM

Well he was stated to be the most powerful maia who allied with Morgoth. He was also mightier than Saruman aka Curumo who was was stated to be "mighty among Aule's people (or something to that effect)". I can't be sure, but it may have been hinted at that Sauron was the most powerful maia of all, but I can't back that up.

It never sat well with me that Gil-Galad and Elendil were able to beat Sauron in combat (and this when he had the ring). The only way the resolution of the combat makes sense to me is if Gil Galad was an extremely powerful Elf, on par with the likes of Fingolfin. Tolkien never gave him much exposure, so I think it's at least possible. On the other hand he never specifically mentioned it, which is why I still find their battle to be confusing.

Arien the Maia · 12-27-2003, 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Captain Stern
Well he was stated to be the most powerful maia who allied with Morgoth. He was also mightier than Saruman aka Curumo who was was stated to be "mighty among Aule's people (or something to that effect)". I can't be sure, but it may have been hinted at that Sauron was the most powerful maia of all, but I can't back that up.

What about Melian? I bet she was rather powerful...I wonder if she could beat Sauron????

Dúnedain · 12-27-2003, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Captain Stern
It never sat well with me that Gil-Galad and Elendil were able to beat Sauron in combat (and this when he had the ring). The only way the resolution of the combat makes sense to me is if Gil Galad was an extremely powerful Elf, on par with the likes of Fingolfin. Tolkien never gave him much exposure, so I think it's at least possible. On the other hand he never specifically mentioned it, which is why I still find their battle to be confusing.

Well, don't forget where Gil-galad came from. He was the son of Fingon and the grandson of Fingolfin...Not to mention, but he was also the last High King of the Noldor, which included the likes of Finwë, Fëanor, Fingolfin, Fingon and Turgon...

Lord Manafirogh · 12-27-2003, 08:06 AM

Melian is more of a white maia. Shes no where near Saurons fight power, like i said feanor would beat morgoth in combat if he concentrated on his arm. However if Morgoth protected his hand Feanor would get tired and lose in the end. Sauron would wipe the floor with melian. Hes too evil. Melian doesnt fight. I dont know much about Gil-galad apart that he and Elendil defeated Sauron in the socond age. And they were slain by side by side in the last allaince of men and elfs.

Artanis · 12-27-2003, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lord Manafirogh
Sauron would wipe the floor with melian. Hes too evil.

Are you sure? Lúthien managed to trick Morgoth, who was much more powerful than Sauron, and she was only half a Maia.

Lord Manafirogh · 12-27-2003, 01:28 PM

What will melian do? Put him to sleep? im talking about fighting skills, like i said Melian does white magic and Sauron is a far more powerful maia then melian. She could probably make a sheild around herself but like it says in silmarillion the sheild can be broken by some1 more powerful so Sauron would probably brake that sheild (like the one around menegroth)

Artanis · 12-27-2003, 01:51 PM

Sure, if magic is prohibited ...

btw: Neither Sauron nor Morgoth managed break the girdle.

afro-elf · 12-27-2003, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Well, don't forget where Gil-galad came from. He was the son of Fingon and the grandson of Fingolfin...Not to mention, but he was also the last High King of the Noldor, which included the likes of Finwë, Fëanor, Fingolfin, Fingon and Turgon...

This a mistake of the Sil. Christopher states that Gil-galad is actaully the son of Oderth(sp)

If you do a thread search there is a discussion that clears it up.

Actually here is the link:

http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/show...ighlight=galad

The Sil states that Hurin was the greatest mortal warrior ever. I would like to see him and Fingolfin spar in a friendly.

Lord Manafirogh · 12-27-2003, 02:36 PM

Did sauron or morgoth actually try and brake the girdle? im gonna check on that but i dont think that girdle has anything to do with the fact that melian wont be able to beat Sauron in single combat.

Falagar · 12-27-2003, 04:10 PM

Morgoth would of course have tried to break the girdle, he wouldn't have let Thingol and Melian live all those years in peace unless he wasn't able to attack them.

***Valandil*** · 12-27-2003, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lord Manafirogh
Ha! Aragorn is a great warrior but he hasnt got the stength of Turin. Turin was mighty in structure and the men of the first age are described far more stronger then the men of the third age by tolkien himself. Your forgeting what Turin has done. He killed Glauron althought he was cursed he was still a better warrior then most men in the first age (apart from his father Hurin who was probably one of the strongest warriors ever). Aragorn is my favourite character in lord of the rings but hes no match for Turin. Aragorn wasn't a direct Numenorian just heir of Isuldur and i think we all know that isuldur was so great anyway. In the two towers Tolkien says only the might of Turin could peirce the armour of shelob, i dont see him saying the might of aragorn could peirce the armour of shelob. although i think aragorn would have killed shelob with ease. Turin had the Structure of a Numenorian and scared of nothing. I dont think aragorn could even face Glaurung let alone kill him. Aragorn is a great worrier for the third age but in the first age men were stronger in mind and body.

Quote:

Originally posted by Turgon_Turambar
im gonna have to agree with mr.manafirogh Turin was the son of the greatest warrior of men and he himself was counted among the greats. The men of the first age were different in body and mind to the men of the third age. Even though Aragorn was a great warrior Turins strength would crush him.

OK... regardless of bloodlines, which Age of the world, or even sheer brute strength, Aragorn would still have beaten Turin! Aragorn was just someone special. When Turin's praises were written, Aragorn hadn't been born, so he wasn't known for comparisons' sake.

The winner... ARAGORN!

Lord Manafirogh · 12-27-2003, 07:16 PM

Quote:

OK... regardless of bloodlines, which Age of the world, or even sheer brute strength, Aragorn would still have beaten Turin! Aragorn was just someone special. When Turin's praises were written, Aragorn hadn't been born, so he wasn't known for comparisons' sake.

O I wish we could ask Tolkien, Aragorn wont beat Turin, never. Turin was thought to be one of the best of all time(of men that is) lets ask people ok? anone whos read both silmarillion and LOTR chose who'd win out of Turin and Aragorn in one on one combat??

Captain Stern · 12-27-2003, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Falagar: Morgoth would of course have tried to break the girdle, he wouldn't have let Thingol and Melian live all those years in peace unless he wasn't able to attack them.

Boy, I wish I'd brought my copy of the Silmarillion to uni with me! I hate not being able to quote things. You will find that in one of the chapters there it says something to the effect of "The girdle would not be broken save if the Dark Lord himself ventured forth from Angband" (which of course he never did). Could somebody here who's feeling especially charitable find the quote for us?

Quote:

Valandil: OK... regardless of bloodlines, which Age of the world, or even sheer brute strength, Aragorn would still have beaten Turin! Aragorn was just someone special. When Turin's praises were written, Aragorn hadn't been born, so he wasn't known for comparisons' sake.

The Edain were more powerful than any race of man in subsequent ages, which includes the Dunedain. It says so in the Silmarillion on more than one occasion. It's not up for debate. Hurin was stated to be the mightiest of all mortal men. Alone, surrounded by Morgoth's army, he killed 80 trolls before being captured. Turin, the son of this man, killed Glaurung, who threatened to decimate an entire army of men and elves when they assailed Agnband at one point.
Turin was given the leadership of the armies of Nargothrond in favour of all the powerful Noldor Lords positioned there. As we all know it came to a bad end, arguably because of Morgoth's curse. However this is irrelevant. The mere fact that he was chosen as Nargothrond's general speaks volumes.
And, personally, I always got the impression that the only man who ever lived that was mightier than him was his father. Aragorn, who was no doubt a great man, was not made of the same stuff as his distant ancestors.

Captain Stern · 12-28-2003, 02:39 AM

Here's an interesting one: Glorfindel vs. Sauron! Assuming he was present at the battle of the Last Alliance, the duel could have easily come to pass. He killed a Balrog in the 1st age and was stated to be even more powerful after he was re-embodied, so I think that encounter could have been really something.

Falagar · 12-28-2003, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Boy, I wish I'd brought my copy of the Silmarillion to uni with me! I hate not being able to quote things. You will find that in one of the chapters there it says something to the effect of "The girdle would not be broken save if the Dark Lord himself ventured forth from Angband" (which of course he never did). Could somebody here who's feeling especially charitable find the quote for us?

There's a "The Girdle could not be broken, if one should not come with greater power than Melian the Maia" (or similar). Which means that Morgoth would probably have managed it, but not Sauron (since he came forth many times, without breaking it).

Lord Manafirogh · 12-28-2003, 09:13 AM

Quote:

The Edain were more powerful than any race of man in subsequent ages, which includes the Dunedain. It says so in the Silmarillion on more than one occasion. It's not up for debate. Hurin was stated to be the mightiest of all mortal men. Alone, surrounded by Morgoth's army, he killed 80 trolls before being captured. Turin, the son of this man, killed Glaurung, who threatened to decimate an entire army of men and elves when they assailed Agnband at one point.

Thank you. At least some one understands. you'll find alot of people would agree with me. And i did say the men of the first age where of higher structure then the men of the third age. To conclude aragorn would NOT be able to beat Turin is single combat. Im afraid hes got a small chance, around 25% I'd say and being I'm generous.

Arien the Maia · 12-30-2003, 01:29 AM

Ok, what about Arien vs. Morgoth....or Sauron even? Take a loook at my sig and you'll see that Morgoth didn't have the power to assail her after a while....

Lord Manafirogh · 01-02-2004, 02:12 PM

I have an intresting one on one. Moroght v Tulkas. my money is on Tulkas. Morgoth in full power stands a chance.

Turgon_Turambar · 01-02-2004, 02:54 PM

When Morgoth was at full power he was strong enough to disrupt even the works of Eru. Only because he wasted his powers on evil he became weaker. If he fought Tulkas at his full strenght he would win hands down no competition.

12-26-2003, 11:32 PM	#42
Captain Stern Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 319	Well he was stated to be the most powerful maia who allied with Morgoth. He was also mightier than Saruman aka Curumo who was was stated to be "mighty among Aule's people (or something to that effect)". I can't be sure, but it may have been hinted at that Sauron was the most powerful maia of all, but I can't back that up. It never sat well with me that Gil-Galad and Elendil were able to beat Sauron in combat (and this when he had the ring). The only way the resolution of the combat makes sense to me is if Gil Galad was an extremely powerful Elf, on par with the likes of Fingolfin. Tolkien never gave him much exposure, so I think it's at least possible. On the other hand he never specifically mentioned it, which is why I still find their battle to be confusing. __________________ Then hate overcame Fëanor's fear, and he cursed Melkor and bade him be gone, saying 'Get thee gone from my gate, thou jail-crow of Mandos!' And he shut the doors of his house in the face of the mightiest of all dwellers in Eä.

12-27-2003, 08:06 AM	#45
Lord Manafirogh Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: London Posts: 187	Melian Vs Sauron????? Melian is more of a white maia. Shes no where near Saurons fight power, like i said feanor would beat morgoth in combat if he concentrated on his arm. However if Morgoth protected his hand Feanor would get tired and lose in the end. Sauron would wipe the floor with melian. Hes too evil. Melian doesnt fight. I dont know much about Gil-galad apart that he and Elendil defeated Sauron in the socond age. And they were slain by side by side in the last allaince of men and elfs.

12-27-2003, 01:51 PM	#48
Artanis Greatest Elven woman of Aman Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7 Posts: 4,285	Sure, if magic is prohibited ... btw: Neither Sauron nor Morgoth managed break the girdle. __________________ --Life is hard, and then we die. Last edited by Artanis : 12-27-2003 at 01:54 PM.

12-27-2003, 04:10 PM	#51
Falagar Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 2,870	Morgoth would of course have tried to break the girdle, he wouldn't have let Thingol and Melian live all those years in peace unless he wasn't able to attack them. __________________ Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle.

12-28-2003, 02:39 AM	#55
Captain Stern Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 319	Here's an interesting one: Glorfindel vs. Sauron! Assuming he was present at the battle of the Last Alliance, the duel could have easily come to pass. He killed a Balrog in the 1st age and was stated to be even more powerful after he was re-embodied, so I think that encounter could have been really something. __________________ Then hate overcame Fëanor's fear, and he cursed Melkor and bade him be gone, saying 'Get thee gone from my gate, thou jail-crow of Mandos!' And he shut the doors of his house in the face of the mightiest of all dwellers in Eä.

12-26-2003, 05:59 PM	#41
Lord Manafirogh Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: London Posts: 187	Yeah thats why i said no1 in the third age could beat him in single combat. and of course he was strong other wise any warrior would have killed him easly in the second age.

12-27-2003, 01:28 PM	#47
Lord Manafirogh Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: London Posts: 187	What will melian do? Put him to sleep? im talking about fighting skills, like i said Melian does white magic and Sauron is a far more powerful maia then melian. She could probably make a sheild around herself but like it says in silmarillion the sheild can be broken by some1 more powerful so Sauron would probably brake that sheild (like the one around menegroth)

12-27-2003, 02:36 PM	#50
Lord Manafirogh Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: London Posts: 187	Did sauron or morgoth actually try and brake the girdle? im gonna check on that but i dont think that girdle has anything to do with the fact that melian wont be able to beat Sauron in single combat.

12-30-2003, 01:29 AM	#58
Arien the Maia Fëanáro's Fire Mistress Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Indiana, USA Posts: 1,423	Ok, what about Arien vs. Morgoth....or Sauron even? Take a loook at my sig and you'll see that Morgoth didn't have the power to assail her after a while....

01-02-2004, 02:12 PM	#59
Lord Manafirogh Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: London Posts: 187	I have an intresting one on one. Moroght v Tulkas. my money is on Tulkas. Morgoth in full power stands a chance.

01-02-2004, 02:54 PM	#60
Turgon_Turambar Elven Warrior Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: The depths of Thangorodrim Posts: 145	When Morgoth was at full power he was strong enough to disrupt even the works of Eru. Only because he wasted his powers on evil he became weaker. If he fought Tulkas at his full strenght he would win hands down no competition. __________________ GOD SENT ME TO PISS THE WORLD OFF!!!!!!!!!!

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