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Old 01-18-2002, 08:52 PM   #21
Michael Martinez
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You all might as well see the full citation:

"Tom Bombadil is not an important person -- to the narrative. I suppose he has some importance as a 'comment'. I mean, I do not really write like that: he is just an invention (who first appeared in the OXFORD MAGAZINE about 1933), and he represents something that I feel important, though I would not be prepared to analyze the feeling precisely. I would not, however, have left him in, if he did not have some kind of function. I might put it this way. The story is cast in terms of a good side, and a bad side, beauty against ruthless ugliness, tyranny against kingship, moderated freedom with consent against compulsion that has long lost any object save mere power, and so on; but both sides, in some degree, conservative or destructive, want a measure of control. But if you have, as it were taken 'a vow of poverty', renounced control, and take your delight in things for themselves without reference to yourself, watching, serving, and to some extent knowing, then the question of the rights and wrongs of power and control might become utterly meaningless to you, and the means of power quite valueless. It is a natural pacifist iew, which always arised in the mind when there is a war. But the view of Rivendell seems to be that it is an excellent thing to have represented, but that there are in fact things with which it cannot cope; and upon which its existence nonetheless depends. Ultimately only the victory of the West will allow Bombadil to continue, or even to survive. Nothing would be left for him in the world of Sauron.

"He has no connexion in my mind with the Entwives. What had happened to them is not resolved in this book. He is in a way the answer to them in the sense that is almost the opposite, being say, Botany and Zoology (as sciences) and Poetry as opposed to Cattle-breeding and Agriculture and Practicality."
(From Letter 144, THE LETTERS OF J.R.R. TOLKIEN)
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Old 01-20-2002, 11:35 PM   #22
Sirithdal
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Tom Bombadil Tom Bombadil

I think you may have something, your observation about his singing personality lending credence to a connection between Tom and the original "Music." My own feeling about this connection would be that he is likely to be, himself, an Ainu (singular form of Ainur). I find it something more than a coincidence that he happens to reside on the edge of The Shire, where Hobbits live in almost total obscurity. It is as if he were an agent of Iluvatar (or the Ainur) waiting for the great role Hobbits would play in the third age. He is known to have visited and kept up relations with certain hobbits (eg Old Gerontius and Farmer Maggot). He even resembles hobbits in happy-go-lucky temperament and appearance; this would probably be because he wants to appear this way to make them feel more at ease while in their presence. While he is probably capable of walking up to Sauron and kicking his ass anytime he felt like it, he is quite above the common "ego" of the world. He is objective, and yet a good friend and a very bad enemy, should he be provoked.

His somewhat delimited interests of earth and living and growing things is consistent with the Ainur as here described:

"The Ainur were the first, and mightiest, beings created by Ilúvatar in the depths of time before the beginning of the World. The Ainur were the 'offspring of [Ilúvatar's] thought', and each was given understanding only of that part of the mind of Ilúvatar from which he or she came. The exception to this was Melkor, the greatest of the Ainur, who had a part of the gifts of all the others."
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Old 01-23-2002, 12:36 AM   #23
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Re: Tom Bombadoll

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirinki54
I have gathered that Tom was originally a doll in Tolkien´s real family. That might account for some of Tom´s "toy-like" qualities in the book, if someone gets my meaning.

This could explain a lot. I think. The yellow boots? Yes, I think that's probably right.

My own theory as to Bombadil's identity is that Tom is an Ainu (singular). This is pronounced eye-knew. Or "I knew ", past tense, which is to say, as Tom did so often, he knew it all BEFORE anyone and everything else. This may have been JRs little clue replete as its own tidy resolution to the controversy.

Too, Tom's constant banter of music is always tied to growing and flowing things, like Goldberry. But, music, reinforcing the fact that The "Music" of the Ainur was the preliminary and quintessential cut-out for Middle Earth and it's reality. Tom Bombadil and Goldberry are physical manifestations of non-flesh intelligence because they are omnipresent and all-powerful in their domain, with help from no one. They just exist in their own little paradise together. What you do in your world is your business. They are both in a sense the Middle Earth peoples' own little mystery.

Last edited by Sirithdal : 01-23-2002 at 01:01 AM.
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Old 01-23-2002, 02:22 AM   #24
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I'm of the opinion that Bombadil must have been something outside of what passes in Middle-earth for a "natural" creature (meaning the Elves, Humans, Hobbits, Dwarves, Ents, plus the races perverted by evil design-orcs, trolls, etc). Why?

When Aulë created the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves ahead of the proper time, Ilúvatar's first action was to spare the Dwarves from Aulë's grief-stricken offer to destroy them. He then said, "But I will not suffer this: that these should come before the Firstborn on my design, nor that thy impatience should be rewarded." Ilúvatar then ordered that the Dwarves be put to sleep until after the Elves awoke. Therefore, I don't think that the Creator would have stood for another human-type being to supplant the Elves as first-born, not even old Tom. That would have been inconsistent.

If he was from the Blessed Realm, (a Maia or something like that), it seems to me that he wasted himself, sequestered in the Old Forest--sort of like how Radagast neglected his calling to become a bird-watcher.

To be honest, I've always felt that Professor T put Tom and Goldberry into the trilogy mostly because they were interesting fairy tale characters. Maybe he never quite solidified in his own mind what Bombadil's nature was.
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Old 01-23-2002, 03:01 AM   #25
Sirithdal
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I think you've missed the point. Tom was indeed not a "natural creature" but a supernatural one. He was Middle Earth's supernatural intelligence. His aloofness and self-sufficiency are explained perhaps best in the fact that he was a conception, somethig objective made physical only occasionally for the benefit of living "creatures" like hobbits, elves, orcs or wizards alike -- an objective "music" concerned mainly with growing things and a certain river spirit he named Goldberry.

Let me provide the relevant quote: "The Ainur were the first and mightiest beings created by Ilúvatar in the depths of time before the beginning of the World. The Ainur were the 'offspring of Ilúvatar's thought', and each was given understanding only of that part of the mind of Ilúvatar from which he or she came."

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Old 01-23-2002, 03:11 AM   #26
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To Sirithdal

I guess I should have made it clear that I wasn't responding specifically to your post, but to the question in general--just putting in my own 2¢-worth. I read your very-logical statement before I wrote my own, and, in my own way, was agreeing with you. I am just too (sleepy, not bored) right now to make my intentions clear. So, good night.
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(Hey-la, hey-la---Now, Gandalf's back)
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Old 01-23-2002, 03:39 AM   #27
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Me thinks Tom is some house help (no offense to house helps) who was left all by his lonesome with the original manuscripts before publication and made some, er, "improvements" with them.

Prof. T. was later asked about Tom and he had to make up some story for fear of embarrassment.
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Old 01-23-2002, 09:05 PM   #28
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Well, like, y'know, like, dude, like Tom's, like, dude, this guy, y'know, and, like, he'n Goldberry just kinda, like, y'know, hang'n'stuff.

Who is Tom? What is Tom? Tom was around before anybody thought to ask such questions.
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Old 01-24-2002, 02:18 AM   #29
Sirithdal
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Tom Bombadil To Ragamuffin92

Yes, I know, I sometimes have that effect on people. Sleep tight. 92, though. Just wondering, do you know what happened in the world in 1992? The following URL will explain.

http://www.nvbb.net/~thack/index4.htm

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Old 01-24-2002, 02:29 AM   #30
Sirithdal
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Tom Bombadil To arathorn

Yes, I think that's just it! In for improvements. But not without a few good times, I suspect.
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Old 01-24-2002, 02:29 AM   #31
Michael Martinez
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sirithdal
I think you've missed the point. Tom was indeed not a "natural creature" but a supernatural one. He was Middle Earth's supernatural intelligence.
There is nothing in any of the texts to indicate that Tom was supernatural. He was a living being.

Whether he was an Ainu is simply unprovable, but he certainly did not have to be one. Nor did he have to be an objectification or personification of anything.
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Old 01-24-2002, 02:48 AM   #32
Sirithdal
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To Michael Martinez, re Tom Bombadil

I think Tom's behavior strongly implies that he is a creature of both spirit and (perhaps) flesh as well, when necessary, although it's true that JRR doesn't give us conclusivity on this, which if given would only spoil him, anyway. But what else are we to think when he does the things he does? He does not fit the mold of a Valar or Maia, or anything else. Omnipresent, for all intents and purposes, omnipotent in his domain, he dotes after spirits, more a musical vision than a prosaic (in Middle earth terms) living or mortal creature.

Make no mistake, in his domain, Tom is boss. It is only when he leaves that part of the music which is his study that he is vulnerable or unsure. And, how much territory does an Ainu really need to carry on his work, in yellow (no doubt vulcanized) boots, improving the original blueprint, his own particular and appointed thread(s) of "The Music of the Ainur?"

His limitations and territory are, indeed, delimited. Only Melkor, the greatest of the Ainur, possesses notes(?) from all the different aspects of The Music.

Sure, maybe it's all a stretch, but it manages to hold together for me as a possibility. Ainu (pronounced "I-knew")? Well, Tom certainly knew. I think JRR wanted us to speculate on old Tom's identity. Too much "conclusivity" is bad for magical worlds, which I'm sure is why his mystery had to be there.

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Old 01-24-2002, 02:58 AM   #33
Michael Martinez
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Re: To Michael Martinez, re Tom Bombadil

Quote:
Originally posted by Sirithdal
I think Tom's behavior strongly implies that he is a creature of both spirit and flesh, although it is true that JRR doesn't give us conclusivity, which if given would only spoil him. But what else are we to think when he does the things he does? Omnipresent, for all intents and purposes, omnipotent. Dotes after spirits, more a musical vision than a mortal creature.
He is hardly either omnipresent or omnipotent, and he points out he has some severe limitations. But I didn't say he was mortal. I said he was a living being.
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Old 01-24-2002, 11:45 AM   #34
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"Living being"

I'm going to have to get all "outside the text" here and pull out a little theology.

While there are many points upon which Orthodox and Roman Catholic theology disagree, there are points of agreement. One is that being "supernatural" (as the term is mis-used today) does not disqualify one from being a "living being". Indeed, God is the most alive of all and the most "supernatural".
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Old 01-24-2002, 01:07 PM   #35
Sirithdal
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Tom Bombadil "Supernatural" Tom

I admit that the word "supernatural" is a bit awkward, indeed "hasty", when used in a Middle-earth context. I use the word in a relative sense. I guess you might say that Tom is natural and alive but in a "super" sense, that is, he is beyond the ken and internal logic of Middle-earth because his "natural" or embodied existence is only a subset of his larger being, and because he is part of the logic of which Middle-earth was made.

I see him therefore as part of the raw material - a music and it's vision - of Middle-earth, a part that is both self-aware and purposeful. I hope this is not too hasty or too moot.

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Old 01-24-2002, 03:33 PM   #36
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As the 'man' himself said:

Quote:
Who am I? Don't you know my name yet? But you tell me who you are, alone, in the dark, and nameless!
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Old 01-24-2002, 10:24 PM   #37
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Re: "Living being"

Quote:
Originally posted by Kiri
I'm going to have to get all "outside the text" here and pull out a little theology.

While there are many points upon which Orthodox and Roman Catholic theology disagree, there are points of agreement. One is that being "supernatural" (as the term is mis-used today) does not disqualify one from being a "living being". Indeed, God is the most alive of all and the most "supernatural".
Tom Bombadil, however, is not God. At least, Tolkien says that God does not appear in the story. That would pretty much rule out Bombadil's being God.

As for whether Tom "is beyond the ken and internal logic of Middle-earth", that's pretty indefensible statement, since Middle-earth has Balrogs (demons), Valar (angels), and God (Iluvatar -- who is "outside of the story"). Tom fits in as Tolkien would have him fit in, and he's not the only enigma in Middle-earth.
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Old 01-24-2002, 10:36 PM   #38
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The "godly" is present in LOTR-the eagles are a sign of Manwe, and Gandalf et al are the Valar doing their bit. SO while Illuvatar isn't directly manifested, that isn't surprising as most people tend to relate to only some of "his" characeristics.
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Old 01-25-2002, 03:41 AM   #39
Sirithdal
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Tom Bombadil

Bombadil is not God, no. He might be considered something of a god, though I seriously doubt if Tom -- or any other LofR character would use the term to describe anyone. "He simply is." (Goldberry's words). I don't think JRR uses the term, "God", even once in the trilogy (someone correct me if I'm wrong). He uses the phrase "The One", I think, but never God.

We compare Middle-earth to our own poor wracked world. Dangerous, though it brings up a curious connection between Middle-earth and Planet Earth, 2002, and maybe even a lesson. How, for example, certain evil lords and their controlled minions seek something, something of unearthly power when held and wielded by it's natural master. Ah yes, Precious. Tricksy they seeks it, even now, and all their will is bent upon it. Gollum!

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Old 01-25-2002, 12:39 PM   #40
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I always felt that Tolkien put Bombadil in,just to show a more vast Middlearth,and although the outcome of the ring effects all of Middlearth,there are some creatures of power that will not be involved,or have little concern for the events that are taking place around them.I think this projected many feelings about creatures, like Tom Bombadil.Respect,and fascination seems to be two of the biggest feelings toward T.B.He seems to have great prestige among all of the powerful in Middlearth,but most think he is limited to the old forest,or has only concern for the realm he lives in,and although,one of the most powerful in his enviroment,and some think could be a useful ally,most feel his power is of a different nature.And so that made some have respect for T.B. since he was very ancient,and mighty,but he just wasn't interested in the power struggles that involved the world around him.Thats just my opinion about T.B.There is something about major characters,playing minor roles in stories,that makes me like them for some reason.
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