A few questions about the Maiar

[Captain Stern]

Is it said anywhere that Sauron was the most powerful of all the Maiar? I know he was the most powerful in the service of Morgoth but were there any more powerful he? Tolkien only mentions the name of a very few Maiar so I'm having truble making comparissons.

What exactly was Sauron's rank among the Maiar of Aule?

Does anyone know?

[fatclown]

Well, that is a very good question. I have done my reaserch:
For each of the Valar there are the anuir the great being Eonwe for manwe, oesse for ulmo, tilion the mooon, arien the sun, melian queen of the sindar, sauron the sorceror, gothmog, and of course the istari. To answer your questions sauron may be considered the greatest of morgoth's servants, but Gothmog was also immensly powerful and it can be debated that he would be able to overthrow sauron one on one. Aule had only sauron and lacked another maiar or it was not mentioned. It is doubtful that either saruon or gandalf (who is eventually the greatest istari) could directly overthrow eachother (minus the ring) I dont think the mairar tilion and arien could be defeated (heck they are the sun and moon) BUT THE GREATEST OF ALL MIAR WAS MOST DEFINATELY EONWE. He beared the flag of manwe and his strenght in battle even rivals the valar!! His trumpet announced the war of wrath and the overthrow of Melkor. He also judged the elves and gave the edain wisdom. I hope this helps!

[Captain Stern]

I was under the impression that there were many hundreds of Maiar perhaps even more than that when you consider the creatures which housed trapped spirits such as warewolves and Dragons. These all varied in power, from those such aswarewolves to the truly powerful such as Eonwe and The Balrogs.

I just looked in the Index of The Silmarillion and it describes Sauron as being "greatest of the servants of Melkor"

Eonwe does seem to be the greatest among the Maiar of Manwe, as for being the greatest of all maiar there simply isn't any proof but I'm sure he'd be in the running. As for the greatest Maia of the other Valar it really doesn't say or there are no obvious choices like Eonwe for Manwe.

You mention Osse being the greatest of Ulmo's Maiar, well you really can't be certain as he is the only maia of Ulmo ever mentioned.

Arien was chosen to guide the Sun "She was chosen because she had not feared the heats of Laurelin and was unhurt by them being from the begining a spirit of fire whom Melkor had not deceived nor drawn to his service." This tells us that she wasn't chosen because she was the mightiest Maia of her particular Vala but because she could resist the heat of Telperion. Also correct me if i'm wrong but doesn't this passage tell us that she is an uncorrupted Balrog? Which leads me to ask were the Balrogs all Maiar of one Vala? A group of similar Maiar?

Tilion certainly wasn't the greatest of Orome's Maiar. Unlike Arien he wasn't chosen for the task of guiding the last flower of Telperion but he begged for the privilage because of his love for the Silver tree. It's also stated that he was not as mighty as Arien.

Istari. Didn't Sauron bend Saruman to his will using the palantir? Saruman was the greatest of the Istari and his power was miniscule comapred to the power of Sauron. I remember a passage in The Lord of the Rings which compared Orthanc and the Tower of Mordor. I've been trying to find the passage but I just can't find the damn thing, it went something like "Orthanc looked like a child's immitation compared to the dark tower of Sauron" which shows that Sauron's power was leaps and bounds ahead of the power of the greatest Istar.

[Comic Book Guy]

Fatclown, you are forgetting that Curumo(Saruman) was also a maia of Aulë.

Captain Stern, you are right in thinking saying that Istari are weaker than Sauron even at their full power. It states in Unfinished Tales, that Olórin(Gandalf) feared Sauron.

The quote you were looking for is this

A strong place and wonderful was Isengard, and long it had been beautiful; and there great lords had dwelt, the wardens of Gondor upon the West, and wise men that watched the stars. But Saruman had slowly shaped it to his shifting purposes, and made it better. as he thought, being deceived-for all those arts and subtle devices, for which he forsook his former wisdom, and which fondly he imagined were his own. came but from Mordor; so that what he made was naught, only a little copy, a child's model or a slave's flattery, of that vast fortress. armoury, prison, furnace of great power, Barad-dùr, the Dark Tower, which suffered no rival, and laughed at flattery, biding its time, secure in its pride and its immeasurable strength.

Also I like the thought of a good, uncorrupted balrog, but in the Valaquenta it seems to suggest that only the corrupted ones were Valaraukar.

[fatclown]

I agree to some extent stern. Curumo is not greater than Olorin by the third age. And it can not be concluded wheather or not he was greater nor lesser than sauron. Olorin was created to guide the peoples of arda against the dark powers (sauron) not do the deed against him. It can be argued, however, weather or not gandalf could have been destroyed. Unlike sauron, who's power and weakness was based upon his ring, gandalf had no great weakness especially when ascending to white. The topic of weather or not saruon or gandalf could have won one on won could be greatly disbuted (considering the sheer amount of power and body switching in saurons case would be involved) I agree with what you said on the maiar. Yet dragons and werewolves were not maiar, they were either bred or created with arda, not the the valar, as other maiar are. With Arien, it is apparent that evil in this book is associated with fire and burning, but Arien lacked that evil, she was of glorifying fire, not evil. She wasn't a balrog.

Comic: I would like to see the statement that gandalf feared sauron, just for information sake. And the strength of structure or fortress cannot be used to judge the power of the individual, for the power of sauron's ring alone crumbled the barad-dur. Assailing the pits of Utumno may be greater in challange than assailing melkor himself? This is up for debate...

[Comic Book Guy]

The statement you are looking for Fatclown, is in the essay on the Istari in Unfinished Tales, when the Valar are having the council on who should go to Middle-Earth.

Most of the remaining writings on the Istari(as a group) are unhappily no more than very rapid jottings, often illiegible. Of major interest however, is a brief and very hasty sketch of a narrative, telling of the council of the Valar, summoned it seems by Manwë(And maybe he called upon Eru for counsel?), at which it was resolved that there should be three emissaries to Middle-Earth. "Who would go, for they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo might, and must clothe themselves in flesh as so to treat on equality and trust of Elves and Men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and wearyness coming from the flesh." But only two came foward, Curumo who was Chosen from Aulë, and Alatar, who was sent by Oromë. Then Manwë asked where was Olórin? And Olórin, who was clad in gray, and having just entered from a journey seated himself at the end of the council, asked what Manwë would have of him. Manwë replied that he wished Olórin to go as the third Messenger to Middle-Earth. But Olórin declared he was much to weak for a task and that he feared Sauron. And Manwë said that was all the more reason he should go, and that he commanded Olórin.(Illiegible words that follow that seem to contain the word "Third") But at that Varda looked up and said: "Not as the Third"; and Curumo remembered it.
The note end with Curumo took Aiwendil because Yavanna begged him and Alatar took Pallando as a friend.

[Captain Stern]

Fat Clown, about the warewolves and dragons, before tonight I may have agreed with you. However a few hours ago i was flipping through The Silmarillion and started reading "Of Beren and Luthien" when I came accross this line:

"Therefore an army was sent against him under the command of Sauron;and Sauron brought werewolves, fell beasts inhabited by dreadful spirits that he had imprisoned in their bodies."

Make of it what you will. If that was the process of making Warewolves then the process of making Dragons would be very similar you'd think. If not warewolves then why not Dragons?

What I was trying to say in relation to Arien was that she may have been what a balrog would be like if it hadn't been drawn to the service of Morgoth. Maybe the name of "Valarukhar" was given after the transition from a glorious fire spirit like Arien to a creature of darkness like the Balrogs.

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"And the strength of structure or fortress cannot be used to judge the power of the individual, for the power of sauron's ring alone crumbled the barad-dur."
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I think that passage ( thanks for finding it by the way Comic Book Guy ) makes it clear that the strength of structure or fortress is can indeed by related to the power of an individual. In fact the destruction of the Ring causing the crumbling of Barad Durr shows us that it was Sauron's power that held the structure together and in order to do that his power must have been immense indeed. This means that Sauron could do things Saruman could only dream of.

Where does it say that Gandalf the White was more powerful than Saruman the White? If any "White" is as powerful as the other then Gandalf the White wouldn't have stood a chance in a one on one conflict against Sauron, Saruman the White obviously wasn't any where near the power of Sauron.

[Comic Book Guy]

Your are welcome Captain Stern It's especially helpful with this ASCII text version of the LOTR.

[Finmandos12]

Osse was not the only Maiar who served Ulmo. His spouse Uinen was also with him.

And about werewolves and Dragons....
Morgoth "imprisoned spirits in fell beasts." He did not create the bodies of the wolves or the spirits in them, but only united them. We know that there were other spirits below Maiar and Valar. I think thats what werewolves were.
Dragons are a different story. Morgoth created their bodies and put spirits in them.

[Ñólendil]

I think it is said in the Silmarillion and other places that Sauron was the greatest of the Maiar. He is definitely said to be the greatest of the people of Aulë.

There were certainly 'many hundreds of Maiar perhaps even more'. We simply only know of about a dozen that are named.

There are three Maiar of Ulmo mentioned: Ossë, Uinen and Salmar.

Interesting comments, Captain Stern, about Arien as an 'uncorrupted Balrog'. Not that she could be called a Balrog 'demon of might'. I confronted Michael Martinez about this a while ago (you know, I don't think he ever saw your apology), I said in December of last year:

There is a part of the Silmarillion that indicates Arien is what Balrogs would have been had they never fallen to Melkor in the beginning. Is this passage to be trusted?

He replied:

I think so, but everything in Tolkien can be questioned for one reason or another. I think Tolkien was playing with the Greek idea of primal elements at one point: fire, water, air, earth, and void. Melkor would have been the fire deity, as Manwe was for air, Ulmo was for water, and Aule was for earth. The void would have been their origin. But if that was ever what he had in mind, he dropped it quick.

I wonder if each people of the Maiar even had a 'greatest'. Was there always one Maia attached to each Vala that was greater than the others? [/rhetorical question]

I get the impression from different writings about the Istari that there were many more than five, that is: many more than actually came to Middle-earth. Why would any need to be chosen if the ones that came to Middle-earth were the only ones?

I agree to some extent stern. Curumo is not greater than Olorin by the third age. And it can not be concluded whether or not he was greater nor lesser than sauron.

Oh, but it can fatclown. In Of the Istari, published in Unfinished Tales, it said that the Istari were Maiar, though 'not necessarily of the same rank'. They must have been of lesser rank, because it is stated in more than one place (including the Valaquenta) that the greatest of the Maiar of Aulë was Sauron, yet in that same essay (in UT) Curumo is specified as being of that people. Curumo and Sauron as Maiar of Aule + Sauron greatest of the Maiar of Aule = Sauron greater than Curumo.

It can be argued, however, weather or not gandalf could have been destroyed.

Well, no Ainu or any spirit can wholly be destroyed, but they can die. That is, their incarnated form, when they have one, can be destroyed, and that is 'death' to them. Gandalf died. But maybe I've misunderstood you.

fatclown, Werewolves may very well have been Maiar. Their bodies must have been devised by Morgoth (well, it's logical), but they were filled with evil spirits. It's quite possible, considering Tolkien decided the spirit in Huan was a Maia.

Dragons, however, are stated to be filled with the evil spirit of their master. Morgoth apparently put part of his own spirit and will into his Dragons, thus further diminishing himself. Much like, it seems, what Sauron later did with the Olog-hai.

We know that there were other spirits below Maiar and Valar. I think thats what werewolves were.

Do we? I know of the fëar inhabiting the Children of Ilúvatar, but unless you refer to such mysterious beings as Goldberry, Tom Bombadil, Caradhras and the nameless things in the depths of Mória, I have not heard of another order of spirits. So what do you mean?

I'm sure I've been at least slightly redundant here, sorry about that.

[Finmandos12]

I didn't know that Huan was a Maia. So I guess that there were not necessarily other spirits.

The rivermaiden was another being we don't know what it is.

[Ñólendil]

That's true! The River-woman. Some think it's just a poetic name for the Withywindle itself, (Goldberry says she is the 'daughter of the River' once), I think both could be true.

I wonder sometimes if the River-woman was not actually Uinen. It makes sense, if you read what is said of her in the Valaquenta. I have a fancy she attempted to create Goldberry. You know, conceived of her in her thought, wished her to be, and tried, but couldn't. Much like what happened with Aulë and the Dwarves, maybe Ilúvatar gave the thought true being (it being afterall perceived from the beginning*), and she awoke by the Withy-pool, where Tom found her. This would not make her a Maia anymore than it makes the Fathers of the Dwarves Valar. But who knows.

*According to my fancy. She would be ordained to be the spouse of Tom, Eru would know of Uinen's future desire ever since the One created Iarwain Ben-adar, and this would be why it would be permitted. Just as Melian was permitted to give herself a true body (not just as raiment) because it was perceived from the beginning, and indeed ordained for the ennoblement of the Children of Ilúvatar (especially the Second).

[Michael Martinez]

The Withywindle is a bit off the beaten path for Uinen, the Lady of the Seas, to whom the mariners cry.

Another of the Maiar of Ulmo would be Salmar, who made Ulmo's horn.

"Valaquenta" says that the number of the Maiar was not known to the Elves, and that few had names given to them by the Children of Iluvatar.

[Ñólendil]

Perhaps I take the passage too literally, but the Valaquenta says:

His spouse is Uinen, the Lady of the Seas, whose hair lies spread through all waters under sky. All creatures she loves that live in the salt streams, and all weeds that grow there; to her mariners cry, for she can lay calm upon the waves, restraining the wildness of Ossë

The part I may be taking too literally is 'all waters under sky', but the bit about salt streams certainly imply her thought embraced more than just the Sea. I'd say it's still possible (about the River-woman), unless 'all waters' should not be taken literally and the Withywindle was a fresh water stream.

[Michael Martinez]

Most streams are of fresh water. And Uinen was more closely associated with Aman and the deep seas, whereas Osse was more closely associated with the coasts of Middle-earth. When Olwe called upon Osse for help against the Noldor, Osse did nothing. Yet Uinen raised the sea against the stolen ships, sinking many.

It is highly doubtful that Tolkien would have associated the River-woman with Uinen.

[Ñólendil]

Very well then. It was a romantic idea though. What do you think about the River-woman? I have a hunch it's like your Iarwain stance: 'I don't know, you don't know, we don't know'. Safe, and very true, but not very fun.

[Michael Martinez]

Originally posted by Inoldonil
Very well then. It was a romantic idea though. What do you think about the River-woman? I have a hunch it's like your Iarwain stance: 'I don't know, you don't know, we don't know'. Safe, and very true, but not very fun.

Tch, tch!

If I had to take a stance on Bombadil, the River-woman, and Goldberry, I would probably accept Tolkien at his word when he says that Bombadil is an aborigine. An aborigine is literally an original inhabitant. So, Tom, and probably the River-woman and Goldberry, must come from a "race" of rational incarnates who don't fit into the niches of Treebeard's list.

Through the years I have thought of old Tom as probably just another wayward Maia, like Melian. But he doesn't have to be. Tom and Goldberry act like pagan guardian spirits. So what if Tolkien wanted his enigma, described in pre-LoTR terms as "the spirit of the vanishing Oxford countryside", to be an incarnation of the guardian principle. Tom and Goldberry are guardians.

And what do they guard? Some people -- perhaps most -- would be quick to say they must guard the Old Forest and the Barrow-downs. But I don't think that's correct. The trees guard the forests, and the downs don't need guarding. I think Tom and Goldberry and other creatures like them must be guardians of the Children of Iluvatar. They are not in Middle-earth to protect the Children from wayward Ainur like Melkor and Sauron. Manwe, as the rightful King of Arda, would be charged with administering justice among the Ainur. I think Tom and his kind must be charged with watching over the Children as they spread through the world and grow.

Tom displays a special affinity for Men and Hobbits in the book, but he is also known to the Elves and Dwarves. He imparts wisdom and keeps them from stumbling into evil things which are beyond their powers to cope with. And he suppresses the darknes of the Old Forest as it manifests itself in the anger of the trees, keeping them in check without binding them to his will.

Tom has, in Tolkien's own words, foresworn domination or control over other wills. He is a natural pacifist, a non-violent creature who dwells harmoniously with other creatures. But he is also intensely curious, and he studies things simply for the sake of knowing and understanding them. He represents botany, as opposed to agriculture, in Tolkien's view. Tom is, in a way, one of those heavenly beings who is intensely interested in what the Children of Iluvatar do. But he is not charged with governing the world, or defending it against usurpation. He stands aside and lets others deal with such issues.

Ultimately, he cannot survive in a world where domination succeeds, but he can sustain himself amid the conflicts which arise between would-be dominators.

So, there you have it. I've jumped off the wall into a wholly new yard, and propose a Bombadilian theory which doesn't fit the traditional molds. He is not Iluvatar, he is not one of the Valar, he is not a Maia, he is not Tolkien, he is not the spirit of Arda. He is a guardian, and there must be others like him, although they may be few. Goldberry and the River-woman must also be guardians, although they may not be guardians of the Children of Iluvatar.

[Ñólendil]

Certainly Goldberry and Tom cannot be Maiar! If you piece together the quotes from Tolkien about them (well, mostly Tom), you realize they cannot be. I certainly agree they must be unique beings in the World.

But I hardly expected such an answer! You're very brave. *cringes as he awaits the return of the Bombadil-Battle*

___

There are other spirits though that seem to be unique. The spirit of Caradhras and the nameless things in the depths of Mória are said to be older than Sauron (like Tom). I wonder if there is a relationship?

[easterlinge]

Ummm..... when Yavanna complained about the trees and animals being defenceless, Manwe said there were spirits coming from afar dwelling in the trees and animals, becoming Ents and other creatures.

Maybe Bombadil is one of those spirits who decided not to dwell in trees or animals, but took his own chosen form? Maybe Goldberry is a spirit that decided to dwell in the Withywindle, later taking a womanly form.

There may be other such spirit-haunted places, maybe?

As to what those spirits were to begin with...... I dunno, I think Michael is right in saying they're Aborigines, but that's not a very specific and rather fuzzy word.

[Ñólendil]

But remember Tom said he had been in the World before the Dark Lord came from Outside, and that he saw the first rain drop and acorn. Tolkien said he was Eldest in Time. Time first began when Ea was set amid the Void, Ea's 'life was Time'. So Tom must have been in Ea before the Ainur, before the Valar.

But I guess it's possible Tom hadn't been in Arda before the Ainur.