What about Gil-Galad???????? - Page 3

Scarfair · 01-14-2002, 01:51 AM

Michael,
True, in the manner of encompassing titles, 'Firstborn' was used to denote the elves, however my reference to the Gandalf qoute is used because of Tolkien's use of context. Gandalf was speaking of Glorfindel specifically, thus contexting the phrase 'Firstborn' to him, and not as the more widely used title created to encompass the race. Thus one can fairly allude to this use of the title by Tolkien as a personal monikker that would indeed, stand for only those mighty Elves that came in the 'First' age. Tolkien's use here, as such, can only be as personal title, he is too good of a writer to misuse context otherwise. There are no other trips to such a line in his narrative, so I am led to the conclusion that this use was intentional.

-Scar

afro-elf · 01-14-2002, 09:03 AM

Come on Mike, shake his hand.

I respect BOTH of you and I think that it was a misunderstanding.

Bropous has offered a truce. And an eloquent one at that.

PLEASE DO NOT LET HUBRIS RUIN IT.

If he has come this far, can you please do the same.

I believe that you two would be better aimed at disscusing your differences for the enjoyment andbenefit to all here.

Don't waste allies just because you don't agree.

Hell, if tesseract 12 and I can ammend things, certainly, you two can.

afro-elf · 01-14-2002, 11:01 AM

Unlike you, Bropous, I am in command of all the facts, especially regarding tobacco use both in the book and in movies.

Wow! Mike is the Eru of tobacco

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 01-14-2002, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by afro-elf
Unlike you, Bropous, I am in command of all the facts, especially regarding tobacco use both in the book and in movies.

Wow! Mike is the Eru of tobacco

afro-elf, I know you know that he's being sarcastic.

At this point, I would just like to appoligize to Michael and bropous. I feel that I initiated this entire argument. I think that bropous has adequately appoligised to Michael, but I also think that Michael has been seriously offended. Sometimes sorry is not enough until a cooling off period occurrs.

My opinion of Michael's scholarship is based entirely on my exposure to his forum and works. I have found that there are very few people if any on the net with the knowledge of Tolkien that he possesses. I think it is safe to say, that to be able to write a book on Tolkien's world, and have it published, is a true testiment to scholarship. I can't say that I have always agreed with Michael's opinion every time, but I can say that I respect it, and that he is probably more entitled to it than I am mine, for the simple fact that he is much more learned in this area than I am. In other words, I probably trust his opinion more than my own, even if he can be opinionated at times, and let's face it, there are certian things in Tolkien's works that we will never have the answers to. therefore our opinions can not be wrong or right, they just are.

brpopous, I think you have done all you can, and I would be patient. I am sure you and Michael will patch it up.

Again fellows, I am truely sorry if I was the cause of this falling out.

bropous · 01-14-2002, 03:13 PM

SisterGoldenHair, thanks deeply for that sincere acceptance of blame upon yourself, but of that blame you have no share. It was I who was to blame for taking hits at the person in question, and though I did throw down my sword and offer it as a plowshare, your suggestion it may take some time for him to cool down is a sound one. I will keep that in mind.

afro-elf, thanks also for the peacemaking, and I agree that Michael and I would do a far greater service to the group in discussing our differences in opinion intelligently. I have every confidence, in the fullness of time, the situation will be exactly that.

Best to you both!

afro-elf · 01-14-2002, 05:05 PM

Quick question. Doesn't this symbol

mean Iam teasing you?

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 01-14-2002, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by afro-elf
Quick question. Doesn't this symbol mean Iam teasing you?

I understood that from you afro-elf. I just wondered if you understood that from him. He sounded serious but...

afro-elf · 01-14-2002, 05:47 PM

Alas, the weakness of non verbal communication.

All is well in the Shire again.

***Earniel*** · 01-15-2002, 11:41 AM

I apologize firstly because I fear I might stir up a whole new war on the board here. But I STILL don't know whether there are 2 Glorfindels or just one. If there is only one then that's rather cheap don't you think? (not to mention that I'm in deep **** then)

So can anyone PLEASE explain it to me short and simple?(English is not my mothertongue and I ain't one of te brightest people on earth here) I'm asking for facts here and I would also like to know where you read that. Please have mercy on the poor confused under-educated student that I am...

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 01-15-2002, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Eärniel
I apologize firstly because I fear I might stir up a whole new war on the board here. But I STILL don't know whether there are 2 Glorfindels or just one. If there is only one then that's rather cheap don't you think? (not to mention that I'm in deep **** then)

So can anyone PLEASE explain it to me short and simple?(English is not my mothertongue and I ain't one of te brightest people on earth here) I'm asking for facts here and I would also like to know where you read that. Please have mercy on the poor confused under-educated student that I am...

I wouldn't say that it's cheap. I think it fits in nicely with Tolkien's idea of the re-embodiment of the Elves, and the nature of their fate of living as long as the world lives.

The reason for there being only one Glorfindel as I said earlier, MM had stated before that Elves re-used names, but Tolkien decided that Glorfindel was such a striking name, that it would not be re-used. Therefor, the two Glorfindel's are actually one in the same. If you want to find it, here is where MM says it is:

(Posted by Michael Martinez)

J.R.R. Tolkien concluded the two Glorfindels were the same person, and the essay where he drew the conclusion is published in The Peoples of Middle-earth, suitably titled "Glorfindel"

***Earniel*** · 01-15-2002, 03:43 PM

Thank you for the much needed answer Sister Golden Hair!

I'm still new to Tolkien idea of re-embodiment. But somehow I find this elf-recycling kind of weird and unsuited for Middle-Earth. For me it takes all the drama out of Glorfindel's death.

It also adds a certain feeling of why worry about dying? You can get back to where you stopped last time and begin all over again...

The peoples of Middle-Earth you say? I gotta go find that one!

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 01-15-2002, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Eärniel
Thank you for the much needed answer Sister Golden Hair!

At your service

Quote:

[i]It also adds a certain feeling of why worry about dying? You can get back to where you stopped last time and begin all over again...

[/B]

Gee, you sound a lot like Andreth.

***Earniel*** · 01-15-2002, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Gee, you sound a lot like Andreth.

Um, who's this Andreth?

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 01-15-2002, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Eärniel

Um, who's this Andreth?

I'm sorry. Andreth is in the HoMe Vol. 10 Morgoth's Ring, Section: Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth. She was a human that was in love with an Elf. Aegnor, Finrod Felagund's brother. Finrod and her had a lengthy debate concering life and death of Elves and Humans. Elven re-embodiment, life beyond Arda, and so forth.

***Earniel*** · 01-15-2002, 04:55 PM

Thanks

Sigh, I really gonna have to get my hands on those books some day...

01-14-2002, 09:03 AM	#42
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	Come on Mike, shake his hand. I respect BOTH of you and I think that it was a misunderstanding. Bropous has offered a truce. And an eloquent one at that. PLEASE DO NOT LET HUBRIS RUIN IT. If he has come this far, can you please do the same. I believe that you two would be better aimed at disscusing your differences for the enjoyment andbenefit to all here. Don't waste allies just because you don't agree. Hell, if tesseract 12 and I can ammend things, certainly, you two can. __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. Last edited by afro-elf : 01-14-2002 at 09:04 AM.

01-14-2002, 11:01 AM	#43
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	Unlike you, Bropous, I am in command of all the facts, especially regarding tobacco use both in the book and in movies. Wow! Mike is the Eru of tobacco __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

01-14-2002, 03:13 PM	#45
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	SisterGoldenHair, thanks deeply for that sincere acceptance of blame upon yourself, but of that blame you have no share. It was I who was to blame for taking hits at the person in question, and though I did throw down my sword and offer it as a plowshare, your suggestion it may take some time for him to cool down is a sound one. I will keep that in mind. afro-elf, thanks also for the peacemaking, and I agree that Michael and I would do a far greater service to the group in discussing our differences in opinion intelligently. I have every confidence, in the fullness of time, the situation will be exactly that. Best to you both! __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

01-14-2002, 05:05 PM	#46
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	Quick question. Doesn't this symbol mean Iam teasing you? __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

01-14-2002, 05:47 PM	#48
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	Alas, the weakness of non verbal communication. All is well in the Shire again. __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

01-14-2002, 01:51 AM	#41
Scarfair Hobbit Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 30	Michael, True, in the manner of encompassing titles, 'Firstborn' was used to denote the elves, however my reference to the Gandalf qoute is used because of Tolkien's use of context. Gandalf was speaking of Glorfindel specifically, thus contexting the phrase 'Firstborn' to him, and not as the more widely used title created to encompass the race. Thus one can fairly allude to this use of the title by Tolkien as a personal monikker that would indeed, stand for only those mighty Elves that came in the 'First' age. Tolkien's use here, as such, can only be as personal title, he is too good of a writer to misuse context otherwise. There are no other trips to such a line in his narrative, so I am led to the conclusion that this use was intentional. -Scar

01-15-2002, 11:41 AM	#49
*Earniel* The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium) Posts: 14,363	I apologize firstly because I fear I might stir up a whole new war on the board here. But I STILL don't know whether there are 2 Glorfindels or just one. If there is only one then that's rather cheap don't you think? (not to mention that I'm in deep **** then) So can anyone PLEASE explain it to me short and simple?(English is not my mothertongue and I ain't one of te brightest people on earth here) I'm asking for facts here and I would also like to know where you read that. Please have mercy on the poor confused under-educated student that I am...

01-15-2002, 03:43 PM	#51
*Earniel* The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium) Posts: 14,363	Thank you for the much needed answer Sister Golden Hair! I'm still new to Tolkien idea of re-embodiment. But somehow I find this elf-recycling kind of weird and unsuited for Middle-Earth. For me it takes all the drama out of Glorfindel's death. It also adds a certain feeling of why worry about dying? You can get back to where you stopped last time and begin all over again... The peoples of Middle-Earth you say? I gotta go find that one!

01-15-2002, 04:55 PM	#55
*Earniel* The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium) Posts: 14,363	Thanks Sigh, I really gonna have to get my hands on those books some day...

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