Aragorn's Fall...any changes of opinion out there? - Page 10

Cirdan · 02-05-2003, 01:16 AM

*hums along*

h-hum h-hum, h-hum h-hum,
h-hum h-hum, h-hum h-hum
hoom hum, hoom hum...

olsonm · 02-05-2003, 01:48 AM

The decision of the Ents to go to war wasn't hasty. They agreed that Saruman should be stopped but didn't see how it involved them personally. Until they saw the desecrated area of forest around Isengard; which they clearly didn't know about in the movie. This was the last piece of information they needed to decide to go to war. As Treebeard says in the book it doesn't take ents long to make up their minds about what to do; it only takes them long to lay out all the facts and agree on them. Well, the sight outside Isengard wasn't hard to understand and didn't need to be explained.

**Nurvingiel** · 02-05-2003, 01:59 AM

Wow thanks guys! Thank you to everyone who said nice things about me!

I actually thought I'd get flamed for my scene - I didn't even have the book in front of me! Paraphrasing Tolkien is like doing a paint-by-number Monet. *Breathing a sigh of relief* I was happy about getting the Entdraught in there, how else are Merry and Pippin supposed to be 'uncommonly large and strong' in the Scouring of the Shire?

But Cirdan, you're motivated! You always have long, detailed posts full of information, with the occasional quote to shed light on discussions.

Anyway, Sam is an excellent example of Tolkien's 'moral fiber'. Sam in the movie is the embodiment of book-Sam. However, the point being made is that Sam is the exception to the rule, not the norm.

In terms of sticking to their original book morality:

Sam = amazing, beauteous, and wonderfu;! (Did I mention Sam is my favourite character in the books? You have no idea how happy this makes me!!

Frodo = *twitch* I don't want to talk about this *twitch* *twitch*

Merry and Pippin = pretty darn good, but not enough screen time to say definitively

Legolas = great! Someone made the point that he's a bit cheeky in the book, also he's honourable, and tough - like the book! Only complaint is he's a bit too human sometimes. They missed out on that etheral elfiness.

Gandalf = the book is more in depth, but not bad at all.

Aragorn = he is okay.

Gimli = different... very different. Toss me?!?!?! Who the heck says stuff like that? (And I'm not talking about the connotations, just the stupid-line-ness.) Especially a Dwarf, who are a very proud and noble race of people.

Cirdan · 02-05-2003, 02:02 AM

A very diffrernt character to only go to war for personal sentiment and momentary anger. The Ents wrath in the book was cumulative with awareness of the greater importance of their actions. With all the same facts as Treebeard in the movie when he decides to go to war, the book ents still must mull over the decision. Where did all those other ents come from so quick, anyway.

olsonm · 02-05-2003, 02:17 AM

They didn't mull over the decision. Treebeard decided to go to war as soon as Merry and Pippin told him their tale. Quickbeam decided in a few hours. The other ents mulled over the facts and needed Treebeard to connect all the dots for them (again filling in info. brought by M & P). But once they had all the facts their decision didn't take long to reach.

The other ents come from a ways away. There's nothing about that shot that says how quickly they got there, but the lingering helicopter shot of the forest implied that it took more than a few moments. I agree with you Cirdan about why PJ made most of his changes (i.e. transitional characterization).

Dunadan · 02-05-2003, 05:26 AM

It seemed to me unnecessary for Pippin to hoodwink the Ents into going to battle. I can only think that they included it in the film to emphasise the fact that Merry and Pippin triggered the Ents into attacking Isengard. The subtlety of Tolkien's version would certainly be lost on the multiplex cattle. Or maybe they wanted to play a trick on the afficionados..

Anyway, I was a bit annoyed by it, and agree that it's out of character, but it was soooo groovy to see the Ents trashing Isengard that I can forgive it.

Not sure I can forgive the rock-throwing at the Keystone Orcs, tho..

cheers

d.

LuthienTinuviel · 02-05-2003, 04:03 PM

ha keystone orcs..

that's loveley.

02-05-2003, 01:16 AM	#181
Cirdan Elf Lord of the Grey Havens Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: somewhere else Posts: 2,381	hums along h-hum h-hum, h-hum h-hum, h-hum h-hum, h-hum h-hum hoom hum, hoom hum... __________________ There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary

02-05-2003, 01:48 AM	#182
olsonm Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: minneapolis MN Posts: 920	The decision of the Ents to go to war wasn't hasty. They agreed that Saruman should be stopped but didn't see how it involved them personally. Until they saw the desecrated area of forest around Isengard; which they clearly didn't know about in the movie. This was the last piece of information they needed to decide to go to war. As Treebeard says in the book it doesn't take ents long to make up their minds about what to do; it only takes them long to lay out all the facts and agree on them. Well, the sight outside Isengard wasn't hard to understand and didn't need to be explained. __________________ Gandalf lives...oh and Frodo too. Haldir Lives!!!

02-05-2003, 02:02 AM	#184
Cirdan Elf Lord of the Grey Havens Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: somewhere else Posts: 2,381	A very diffrernt character to only go to war for personal sentiment and momentary anger. The Ents wrath in the book was cumulative with awareness of the greater importance of their actions. With all the same facts as Treebeard in the movie when he decides to go to war, the book ents still must mull over the decision. Where did all those other ents come from so quick, anyway. __________________ There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary

02-05-2003, 02:17 AM	#185
olsonm Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: minneapolis MN Posts: 920	They didn't mull over the decision. Treebeard decided to go to war as soon as Merry and Pippin told him their tale. Quickbeam decided in a few hours. The other ents mulled over the facts and needed Treebeard to connect all the dots for them (again filling in info. brought by M & P). But once they had all the facts their decision didn't take long to reach. The other ents come from a ways away. There's nothing about that shot that says how quickly they got there, but the lingering helicopter shot of the forest implied that it took more than a few moments. I agree with you Cirdan about why PJ made most of his changes (i.e. transitional characterization). __________________ Gandalf lives...oh and Frodo too. Haldir Lives!!!

02-05-2003, 04:03 PM	#187
LuthienTinuviel protector of orphaned rabbits Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Kalamazoo... yes, its a real place! Posts: 1,236	ha keystone orcs.. that's loveley. __________________

02-05-2003, 05:26 AM	#186
Dunadan The Quite Querulous Quendi Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Oxon, UK Posts: 638	It seemed to me unnecessary for Pippin to hoodwink the Ents into going to battle. I can only think that they included it in the film to emphasise the fact that Merry and Pippin triggered the Ents into attacking Isengard. The subtlety of Tolkien's version would certainly be lost on the multiplex cattle. Or maybe they wanted to play a trick on the afficionados.. Anyway, I was a bit annoyed by it, and agree that it's out of character, but it was soooo groovy to see the Ents trashing Isengard that I can forgive it. Not sure I can forgive the rock-throwing at the Keystone Orcs, tho.. cheers d.

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