Orome

[Ñólendil]

The Atani first awoke with the rising of the sun, after the revolt of the Noldor, yet the orcs were already hiding in Angband and elswhere from being bred by Melkor centuries before that. I presume your are relying of some text in the later volumes of the History of Middle Earth (I am only finished through volume V), how is this time discrepency dealt with there?

That's right. The version that appears in the Silmarillion was replaced by the one I have read, which is in Morgoth's Ring, Vol X of the HoMe and Part 1 of The History of the Silmarillion. I imagine it wasn't used because it was a part of a drastic revision of the entire mythology that also was not used (J. R. R. came up with an idea whereby his legends would be more believable to the modern scientifically-minded person). Orks were bred from Men, and the "Orks" seen by the Elves before their coming were actually Maian servants of Morgoth who had taken on shapes of horror. The Sun was created before the Earth was, just as in our Real astronomy and neither the Elves nor the Men awoke at the first Dawn. The Elves were called "the People of the Stars" because they awoke on a clear night and stars were the first thing that they saw, and were revered above any other figures of the Heavens. I beileve before Men awoke the skies were clouded in an evil blackness made by Melkor, and they awoke just as the winds of Manwe were blowing them away, revealing the dawn. Something like that.

I remember hearing somewhere that Trolls came from Ents, but I have no idea where I heard that! Any confirmations of or indignant denials?

Treebeard says in Fangorn (both the chapter and the forest) that Trolls were made in mockery of Ents. It's a possibility, but Tolkien never reached a concrete decision about the origin of Trolls. There's talk from him about their being Orkish spirits that were put in stone, talk of them being corrupted Ents, and also (especially the Olog-hai) being corruptions of a primitive form of Man.

[Millane]

back to the thread question ummm Aule made the dwarves the way they were because they were coming into a dark world with Morgoth and they had to be strong and tought and i guess there stature was summit to do with that

[the real findorfin]

As Lefty said, how does the new theory of men-orcs fit. When the Noldor host enters Beleriand they fight and rout a compnay of orcs. What are these then.

[Ñólendil]

I now deeply regret ever mentioning the Men-from-Orks idea on any topic. Disregard it.

[Lefty Scaevola]

"I now deeply regret ever mentioning..."
I am glad of it being posted. The revision would have made much better reading. For All such incosistancies and and overweirdness (Like the Flat earth created before the sun and Moon) I just keep in mind that even within it's millieu, the Silmarrilion is not history as we understand it, but is a compilation, 7000 years, after the fact of mostly Oral traditions, which grew in the telling, and Ideed were written by a primative people, with limited understading of their world.

[Bard]

) My view on the issue:
The first Orks came into being because Melkor created them himself out of stone or clay or something, like Aule did with the Dwarves. Yet these Orks didn`t had there own thoughts and would only move when there master (Melkor or Sauron) would order them to by fixing there mind on them. Then the Elves came and Melkor took some and used them for interbreeding with his Orks (bit jusy story ). Thereout came a new sort of Ork, one that had it`s own thoughts and could correspond to that. Although they were still in some wais bounded by the will of there masters, wherefor they hated them (as said in lotr). It were these Orks that fought the first battles of Beleriand wherein Feanor died. Next there came man, the sort of being wich are mostly alike the Orks. I suppose Melkor took another bunch of them and with them he made different kinds of Orks. Those descended from the Elf-Orks and men and those that were mixed up with the orriginal stone-Orks whereof the Goblins could have make there offspring. Later Saruman made a last Orksort, the Uruk-hai, yet these kinds of Orks had already walked upon Middle-Earth in the first and possibly second age but did either dimminish or shrink or died out during the long ages followed after Sauron`s disapperance.

[Ñólendil]

An interesting and valid theory, for the most part. I don't agree with it, but there's nothing wrong with it and it is moreover an attractive idea, until you get to Goblins and Uruks. Goblins and Orks are the same thing, and Uruks were made by Sauron thousands of years before Saruman became corrupt. They are pure-Orks, just a superior soldier-breed. This is a fact and you can read all about it in The Lord of the Rings (make sure you check the Appendices). The movie has really confused people.

I just keep in mind that even within it's millieu, the Silmarrilion is not history as we understand it, but is a compilation, 7000 years, after the fact of mostly Oral traditions, which grew in the telling, and Ideed were written by a primative people, with limited understading of their world.

As I understand things the real Quenta Silmarillion is supposed to have put together on Andor before the Shadow fell upon it, but the longer tales the Númenoreans use to make the Quenta were First Age writings, or earlier. The Narn-I-Chîn Húrin, for example, was written by a young man of the House of Húrin in the First Age after the Fall of Gondolin. His name was DÃ*rhavel, I believe, he lived by the Sea with all the other Free peoples that got their dérriers handed to them by Morgoth. He gathered his information from refuges of Hithlum, Gondolin, Brethil, Doriath and the Falas.

Or to go further back, "Of the Darkening of Valinor" owes much to Aldudénië, a story written by the Vanya ElemmÃ*rë, that was evidently passed on with the Ñoldor to Middle-earth. The Vanyar like all the Light Elves lived with the Holy Ones, and must have, so said Tolkien, accurate knowledge where astronomy is concerned. Especially the Vanyar, I would say, as many of them lived on the feet of Taniquetil, and they were beloved of Varda the Sublime, Varda the bearer of the hidden Light, Varda the Kindler.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Recall that writing was invented by the Elves, seperately in Aman and in Beleriand after the great journey, The elves that made the journey and a generation or so after them, which would emcommpass much of the leadership and the great of the eldar into the first age, thus learned literacy as an adult education. thier first written modes of expression would have recording oral songs, with all that form's tradtions, among which literal unebellished history was not likely one. What they wrote would likely have much more in common with Homer's work, than with Shakespear's or Gibbon's.

[Ñólendil]

What are you getting at, Lefty?

[Lefty Scaevola]

That we should veiw the Silmarillion as heroic poetry rather than a history of the First Age, somewhat more "real" (in its world) than The Illiad is in ours, but less less real than LoTR in its world or a history treatise in ours. Anything too fanciful or left filed in it can be consider poetic license, and not everything therin has to make sense in the 'real' Middle Earth.

[Ñólendil]

In what way is The Silmarillion poetry?

I disagree with you. I think The Silmarillion -- the ideal Silmarillion --- should be regarded in the same respects as The Lord of the Rings. The published Silmarillion does not hold nearly as much weight to me. The Silmarillion was supposed to be as real to it's own world as The Lord of the Rings. It didn't turn out that way, but never got The Silmarillion as it was meant to be.

[Lefty Scaevola]

IIRC, JRRT in his 1951 letter to the Mr Walden, cited in the preface to the sencond edition, states that the SIL was significantly mythological, more so in its earlier parts, and less so in its later parts, particularly after men entered the story.