Orome

[double helix]

Do you think that since Aule aniur of smith

work who created the Dwarves with out permision of Illuvatar

whould have made the dwarves look like something other than

what they are short in size and temper and thick in wieght and

headed or did aule do it impromptu like a spur of the moment

thing because he didn't want the other aniur to figure out. I

believe he could of made them alot more beautiful.

And on a side note did melkor corupt the elves which made them
orcs

[Sister Golden Hair]

What's with the big bold print?

Orome did not create the Dwarves, Aule did.

Originally Tolkien had said that Orcs came from corrupted Elves that had been taken captive I believe. He later changed this and Orcs were now derived from the race of Men. Something like that.

[Jador]

AULE DID TRY TO HIDE HIS CREATION FROM THE OTHER MIAR BECAUSE HE WAS IMPATIENT>

SGH Isnt the first time that men are mentioned to do with orcses,when Saruman is involved?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Jador
AULE DID TRY TO HIDE HIS CREATION FROM THE OTHER MIAR BECAUSE HE WAS IMPATIENT>

SGH Isnt the first time that men are mentioned to do with orcses,when Saruman is involved?

I think Nolendil would be a more reliable source here, but I believe it is stated either in one of Tolkien's letters or the HoMe series that the idea of Orcs coming from Elves no longer was the case and it was Men always that they were derived from. Sorry I can't give you exact references, but I am sure MM, or Nolendil can.

[Beruthiel]

Pardon me for jumping in, but I have participated in other chats about this, and I think I can help.

Aule created the dwarves to be strong and be able to face the world as it was - the one where Melkor was knocking down mountains and creating earthquakes. He had only seen the Children of Illuvitar briefly, so he made them as best he could recall. He wasn't really all that concerned about looks. He wanted something that would survive, and create works of metal and halls of stone, as Aule delighted in.

The orcs are a different story. There are conflicting reports. Tolkien said in the Sil that The Wise believed them to be corrupted Elves. Later, he said they were fell spirits that had been mingled with Elves. Then it's said that they were fell spirits mingled with men! Oh, the puzzlement!

Add to the mix that there are three different types of Orcs. The originals, the gobling-orcs, and the Uruk-Hai. Oh....I think you should check MM's writings on this topic. He's got more pf a handle on it than I do. Frankly I like to think it's what was described in the Sil, and leave it at that.

[Ñólendil]

In Of Aulë and Yavanna it states that the Dwarves look as they are because the vision of the Children of Ilúvatar that were to come were yet unclear in his mind. He was thus trying to make the Dwarrows look as much like Elves and Men as he could, but he wasn't sure exactly what they looked like.

The idea that Orcs came from Elves is so wide-spread that it's almost pointless (tedious? laborous?) to keep telling people that's not the way it is. And the movie doesn't help. In the old texts, naturally before The Silmarillion was put together as it was put together after J. R. R.'s deaths, Orcs came from Elves. There's no arguing that. But Tolkien replaced this idea with the one SGH mentioned: Orcs came from Men. You can read all about it in Morgoth's Ring, which is Volume X in ths History of Middle-earth series and Part 2 of The History of the Silmarillion. It's in a section called Myths Transformed.

The idea is that Melkor had the idea to corrupt the first Men into his own Race, and that Sauron knew of his plans. So when Melkor was taken by the Valar to Valinor for his three-Age imprisonment, Sauron implemented the grand plans and started corrupting a bunch of Men, spiritually and corporeally, so that there were vast armies of them waiting for Melkor upon his return. Sauron also cross-breeded the Orcs with Men and made the first Half-orcs. Saruman "discovered" (in the same sense that Columbus "discovered" the Americas) how to do this in the Third Age and was thus mimicking Sauron.

Beruthiel, there were many different kinds of breeds and tribes, not only three. What do you mean by "the original kinds"?

[Bertuthiel]

Weeeeelllll....I meant there were the originals, the ones spoken about in the Sil. The others? I have no idea how many there were. Perhaps you can help by listing them. I'd be interested to see just how may there were. I'd thought that there were only a few, the ones mixed, Elf and Fell spirits, Man, Elf and Fell spriits, The Uruks and weird (possibly just differently worded) goblin-orcs.

[Ñólendil]

Oh I see. I thought you were talking about the different kinds of Orks in a single legendarium, as seen in the Lord of the Rings. You mean different versions. That's different. I don't know how many different versions there were. I always seek the final answer, which is often but not always the authoritive one, the one that best belongs in the beloved legends of The Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings.

I just meant that the Lord of the Rings shows clearly that were many different kinds of Orks.

"Goblin" is indeed another word for "Ork", though some stubbornly deny it. There are many proofs, but it is put quite clearly by Tolkien in the Foreword (or whatever it was) to the second edition of The Hobbit. "Ork" (or "Orc" as it appears in The Lord of the Rings) is a genuine Common Speech word, and "Goblin" is of course English.

Because I enjoy myself too much and with the excuse of you perhaps needing a bit of help (I don't know if you do), I'll try to give you a better idea of Orks, as I believe they are, based on my crack-head-four-in-the-morning studies. [/longsentence]

Ork-like creatures were first seen by the Elves of Cuiviénen, the Water of Awakening, as horrible shapes in the darkness. In Primitive Quendian such a shape was called "uruk", "urkô", "urku" and "uruku", related to the adjective of "urkâ"="horrible". These were Fallen Maiar in the service of Melkor. As I have said, although Orks as an idea is derived from Melkor, it was Sauron who achieved it, while Melkor was in captivity. Later, in the Wars of Beleriand, some of these demonic Orks would emerge from the gates of Hell, leading armies, and they were the most feared of Morgoth's minions, "only less formidable than the Balrogs".

He achieved it (the making of true Orks) when Men came around, which was much sooner after the Elves that in the version that appears in The Silmarillion as published. He took Men and ruined them, and true Orks could be seen in a few generations. After he had a fair supply he began to interbreed the true Orks with true Men, producing a Race of Half-orks (of which nothing is otherwise said, as far as I know). The Orks you see in The Silmarillion and the Lord of the Rings are of this kind (ruined Men).

In the Third Age Sauron first devised the Uruk-hai, a breed of soldier-Orks far superior to the earlier kinds, which they referred to as "slaves". The Uruk-hai were taller, almost man-high, broad, swart, slant-eyed, red-tongued, hairy, stout and strong. They were hardier than their lesser kindred and were trained to endure the light of the Sun. Wherever they dwelt, in the Black Land of Mordor, in the Mountains (Angmar, the Grey, the Misty, the White), in the ring of Isengard, in the wide uncharted lands of the East and South, they were a menace and a threat to their neighbors, eachother and to the lesser kinds.

Thousands of years later Curumo, known to the Men of the North as Saruman, uncovered the ancient evil arts known to the Sauron of old, and he began breeding his Orks with Men (probably Dunlendings), producing a new Race of Half-orks to trouble the world.

This version, the version I follow, is not wholly seen in or in accordance with the published Silmarillion, and it certainly is in strong disagreement with the unfortunate words of Saruman in the movie, but I do not think that matters. Naturally I think I'm right and I'm fully prepared to argue my case, but many do not believe all this to be true at all. Trust who you wish, if you will, or gather the books around you and decide for yourself.

[Bertuthiel]

Mmmmm. Blech, I won't debate you. I find Orcs disgusting in any form. in fact, your info seems good, and I'll take that for canon for LOTR. The Sil? oye, I'm learning that it's very unstable. From now on it seems that I will have to consult several books before coming to a conclusion, based wholly on my own beliefs! Arrgg.....

[Agburanar]

There are many, many different orcs. They could be created from all sorts of different combinations. There are the Goblin-Orcs of the Misty mountains, The 'Black Uruks of Mordor' are mentioned amongst the ranks of orcs in Moria, there are the Sniffler and Tracker orcs evolved with incredible senses of smell, the Uruk-Hai, The weedier Snaga....

In short I believe each type of orc could have been created differently to serve a definite purpose amongst Morgoth's (and later Sauron's) ranks.

[Rhûnboy]

I'm putting forth this speculation as an idea, based on my own observations, as well as those made in this thread, particularly Ñólendil.

It seems from the discussion that the original orcs were derived from runined men.

However, given the variety of orcs described in "canon," as well as the fierce and bitter divisions between what are essentially members of the same armies, and servants of the masters, plus the immence history (8,000+ years) behind the development of orcs, I would speculate there's all sorts of things floating around there: men, elves, dwarves, ents... given that obiquitous warped desire to "create" among Dark Lords, I'd expect them to try to make and orc out of anything. Then you have room for all sorts of physical and temperamental differences, and rivalries between various tribes of orcs could parallel those between the Free People of Middle-Earth.

Like I said, this is speculative; I haven't found any positive evidence of this. However, I haven't found anything to contradict this view, and I think it is fitting given both the descriptions of orcs and their masters.

I should add, however, that I've had only a little experience with the HoME. I've read and reread the three main books, however.


~ Connor (Rhûnboy)

[Ñólendil]

But do you really think some Orks could have been made from Ents?

[Lefty Scaevola]

Orcs lived with the immortality of the Quendi, and thus are overwhelming likey to be derived of elvish stock. I do not believe even Melkor would have the power to change that fundamental part of the nature of one the races of the children of Iluvatar.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
Orcs lived with the immortality of the Quendi, and thus are overwhelming likey to be derived of elvish stock. I do not believe even Melkor would have the power to change that fundamental part of the nature of one the races of the children of Iluvatar.

Problem is that Tolkien changed his mind about this later down the road. Orcs ended up being from Men and not from Elves at all.

[Artanis]

It takes more than a (Man's) lifetime to create a world. Especially if he changes his mind on fundamental matters along the way, like Tolkien did, ending up confusing us all. Sometimes I think it would take more than a lifetime to understand his work.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Problem is that Tolkien changed his mind about this later down the road. Orcs ended up being from Men and not from Elves at all.

Not alll his susequent note represnt a change of mind. As often as not they were experimental musings that were themselves abandoned.

[Ñólendil]

But that is not the case with the Orks.

[Lefty Scaevola]

The Atani first awoke with the rising of the sun, after the revolt of the Noldor, yet the orcs were already hiding in Angband and elswhere from being bred by Melkor centuries before that. I presume your are relying of some text in the later volumes of the History of Middle Earth (I am only finished through volume V), how is this time discrepency dealt with there?

[crickhollow]

Originally posted by Ñólendil
But do you really think some Orks could have been made from Ents?

I remember hearing somewhere that Trolls came from Ents, but I have no idea where I heard that! Any confirmations of or indignant denials?

[Agburanar]

Sounds quite likely to me. But I have no proof. Trolls were made out of rock though weren't they? That's why they turned back to stone at dawn...

(Happy Birthday to meeeeee- drunken hobbit fishing for congratulations!!!)