Ravens

[webwizard333]

Just how smart were those ravens at the Lonely Mountain? They seem o be a speaking creature, so what happened? Did the speaking kind die off, or did they get covered in paint and called themselves parrots?

[ringbearer]

Not only parrots can talk! If you raise a crow from a hatchling, you can teach them to "speak" as well...what I am unsure about, is the difference between a crow and a raven...if there is one.

[webwizard333]

Nevermore do they do that.

[Ñólendil]

It seems like all the Kelvar declined over the Ages, in 'humane comprehension'. For I've noticed most beasts in Tolkien's legendarium seem to be extra intelligent.

[Erewe]

Like that fox in LOTR. I've always liked that part, kind of a farewell to the style of The Hobbit, to the darker style of LOTR.

--Erewë

[Finmandos12]

I think the first part of FOTR is like the Hobbit. The others aren't, though.

[webwizard333]

Thus making the Hobbit superior.

[ringbearer]

Originally posted by webwizard333
Thus making the Hobbit superior.

superior to what? LotR? Not a chance! Superior to most other literature...agreed!

[ringbearer]

Originally posted by webwizard333
Nevermore do they do that.

hope this was just a joke! Crows can talk!

[webwizard333]

I happen to like the Hobbit the best out of all Tolkien's works (though I have yet to read the Silmarrilion) and I'd be happy to debate that with you some other time. Now do ravens really talk? I know several birds can do that (well not really talk but mimic us or do you mean the sounds that they make?).

[Ñólendil]

Of course Ravens can talk. Or they probably can. I hear there are some in Baltimore that play football.

[Finmandos12]

I HATE the Ravens!I HATE THE RAVENS!!!!

[ringbearer]

Crows can talk, or "mimic" like other bird species. As I said earlier, I am unsure if ravens and crows are the same...they may be cousins.

[bombcar]

The ravens are obviously similar to the Eagles in Tolkien's works. in fact, given that Aragorn warns the hobbits that unfriendly eyes could be in birds' heads, and Saurman, et al use crows, it is obvious that all animals in Middle Earth had some modicum of intellegence. The ravens seemed to be one of the few species that could not only have itellegent conversation (the thrush, Beorn's horses, and Bombadil's ponies could understand Westron), but be able to learn the language of the free peoples. (Another example would be the Eagles.)

This all would argue that the Ravens were about as intellegent as the Eagles, but not quite as, shall we say, concerned with their own affairs. It is obvious from the Hobbit that the Raven Thorin talks to has misgivings about communicating with Dain of the Iron Hills, but he doesn't complain. An eagle in a similar situation would probably bite your head off if he didn't think your plan was the best. (Unless you happened to be Radagast (Dr. Dolittle?) or Gandalf.)

[Ñólendil]

Ravens and Crows if related are certainly not the same in 'Tolkien's world'.

Crows could talk too. They had their own language, which the Dwarves could understand. Cf. (I think it was) Balin's words in The Hobbit, while climbing the Lonely Mountain.

Also cf. the last paragraph of Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalië:

Fëanor and his sons abode seldom in one place for long, but travelled far and wide upon the confines of Valinor, going even to the borders of the Dark and the cold shores of the Outer Sea, seeking the unknown. Often they were guests in the halls of Aulë; but Celegorm went rather to the house of Oromë, and there he got great knowledge of birds and beasts, and all their tongues he knew. For all living things that are or have been in the Kingdom of Arda, save only the fell and evil creatures of Melkor, lived then in the land of Aman; and there also were many other creatures that have not been seen upon Middle-earth, and perhaps never now shall be, since the fashion of the world was changed.

It seems that in Tolkien's legendarium, in the ancient past some species of birds and beasts could speak the tongues of People, while all had tongues of their own. These latter I guess is all we hear now, but perhaps they are no longer what they were.

About the difference between the Ravens and Eagles, I think you're right. The eagles were nobler. Gwaihir became King of all Birds.

Dolittle, lol!

You know, Radagast seems strange to me. He's supposed to be a Maia of Yavanna, and the text that says this certainly is congruent with what we hear of him in the Lord of the Rings, but (apparently) to Christopher Tolkien and certainly to me he seems rather to be of the people Oromë, the Vala whom the Blue Wizards are supposed to be devoted to. And as for the Blue Wizards, if they're of Oromë, why are they clad in sea blue? Saruman as White makes sense on different levels, even aside from being head of the order and all that (cf. his conversation with Gandalf in Council of Elrond), white might remind one of the smooth, white stone or the glitter of jewels that look fair in the hand. For Gandalf it was as a white flame or light (and Gandalf was devoted to Manwë and Varda). As Grey, it was ash-grey, which is very fitting. Radagast is clad in earthen brown, which fits one of the people of Yavanna. But why, I ask you, would Maiar devoted to Oromë the Hunter, Oromë the King Forester, Lord of Forests, be clad in sea blue?

I realize the colours seem to be signs of office, but for the other three Wizards they also seem to reflect their talents and the Valar they serve. What has Oromë got to do with the sea?

[/rant]

[Bradistic]

I don't know what Tolkien thought but in real life Ravens and Crows are different species, but are closely related. Ravens are larger than Crows and it is likely that Ravens are the most intelligent of all birds.

[Wayfarer]

I believe I saw something on the blue coloration somewhere. I'll look it up.