Arwens Mortality.

[samwise of the shire]

I checked on the Eeee...Aragorn+Little Kid thread and began reading the posts. Ulmo stated this "She still had a significant amount of Elvish blood in her - even more than the amount in her uncle Elros' veins." in answer to Human#3.141592653's question of "If Arwen turns human she would age normally then, yes? Faster than her husband? So in the end, it might be Aragorn weeping over the grave of one lost to old age...."
But that gave way to another question. Why should Arwen die at all? What makes the elves mortal if they marry a human? Would a mortal woman become immortal if she married an elven man? Or would the elven man become mortal?
It's stupid, but just one of those questions you need to ask or else you're gonna go bonkers,
Cheers,
Sam

[Laurus Nobilis]

I don't know what makes the Elves mortal when they marry a human, but I can help with another part of your questions.

It's stated in the Appendixes that Aragorn died before than Arwen, though he was very old already. Then she went to Lothlórien and died there.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Laurus Nobilis
I don't know what makes the Elves mortal when they marry a human...

Isnt it just a choice given to a very select few elves in that situation that those with the the power to actually grant ask of them?

[gimli7410]

im not sure she turned mortal but elves die when they are depressed and i am geussing that she was pretty depressed when aragorn died

[The Lady of Ithilien]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
Isnt it just a choice given to a very select few elves in that situation that those with the the power to actually grant ask of them?

I used to think so, but then remembered that Legolas was very impressed by Prince Imrahil because he could see that the Prince had elven blood in his veins (I forget the exact quote). That would be from Nimrodel and Amroth's people, I guess. But Imrahil was mortal, and presumably his ancestors were, too, so.....?

[Elvellyn]

Originally posted by The Lady of Ithilien
I used to think so, but then remembered that Legolas was very impressed by Prince Imrahil because he could see that the Prince had elven blood in his veins (I forget the exact quote). That would be from Nimrodel and Amroth's people, I guess. But Imrahil was mortal, and presumably his ancestors were, too, so.....?

I know that confused me too.

I think the only reason Arwen got to choose to die was because her father was a Halfelven.

[gollum9630]

It is stated that Elrond gave his children a coice to stay in middle earth and be mortal after he leaves, or to leave and stay immortal, and since she chose to stay she became mortal.

[Tar-Elenion]

Originally posted by Laurus Nobilis
I don't know what makes the Elves mortal when they marry a human, but I can help with another part of your questions.

The _only_ Elf to become mortal was Luthien Tinuviel. She was an absolute exception, and it took a direct intervention by God for that to happen.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I thought Arwen did too...and I thought Elrohir and Elladan had the choice.

Also, I thought it was the Valar, not God? Although that does make more sense; as the Valar could not revoke the Gift He gave to the Edain, it would make sense that they could not give His Gift to Luthien.

[Aranwe]

Arwen isn't exactly an Elf, she's half-elven, which is why she got to choose.

Elros, Elrond and his sons also got to choose. Elros became mortal, Elrond became immortal, and I haven't got a clue about his sons don't think it specifies which at any point.

Arwen does become mortal, she gives her place to Frodo. She could have either died of grief or because of her being mortal, but she explicitly states that by choosing to stay she will be mortal.

The confusing part in the movies is when Elrond is trying to persuade her to leave. It shows Aragorn old and dead lying on an altar, with a totally un-aged arwen by his side. Which would point to the fact that she is immortal. But I guess thats just a mistake by PJ?

It is atated that Elrond gave his children a coice to stay in middle earth and be mortal after he leaves, or to leave and stay immortal

Elrond didn't give them that choice, that was just the choice that was forced upon them. Either by the Valar or Ea, not sure which, but half-elves couldn't stay in middle earth and be immortal after the fading of the elves.

[Elf Girl]

Maybe Arwen couldn't choose to become "mortal", she could choose to die. Die, as in, die at this very moment. So when she chose to become "mortal", maybe she was saying, "I will choose to die when Aragorn does."

I'm sure I'm wrong though, please correct me!

[Aranwe]

I never looked at it that way, it's a good theory.

One slight flaw, Arwen doesn't die right after Aragorn, she wanders alone in Middle-earth for a while before dying.

Maybe she became mortal when Aragorn died? That way she would only start ageing from that point, and so would take some time to die.

A bit far-fetched, but you never know...

[Elf Girl]

Maybe when she chose to be "mortal" she was saying, "I will choose to die at some time in the future when I can no longer bear to live without Aragorn."

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Aranwe
The confusing part in the movies is when Elrond is trying to persuade her to leave. It shows Aragorn old and dead lying on an altar, with a totally un-aged arwen by his side. Which would point to the fact that she is immortal. But I guess thats just a mistake by PJ?

I was under the asumption that Elrond (in the movie) wasnt aware that she had "given away" her immortality to aragorn by choice. As represented by her little pendent thingy.

[Ulmo]

Yes - the important thing is to remember Arwen is not an elf. She is a half-elf, whom Eru has given the choice between mortality and immortality.

No elf can just give up their immortality. Eru has to give them this choice, and that only happened once in the very rare case of Luthien, as Tar Elenion noted.

An article I wrote outlining the half-elven choice can be found here:

http://www.barrowdowns.com/faq_halfelves.asp

[azalea]

The exact words in Appendix A are "Arwen became as a mortal woman." This is just after Elrond has left. So my best guess is that the choice was hers until he left, and as that boat left, so did her immortality. I happen to think she died because she was mortal, but the grief she felt played a role, not unlike many elderly people today who, upon losing their spouse, become a shadow of their former selves, and eventually succumb to death, whereas if they had been single, or if they had preceded their spouse, they may have lived longer.

[Artanis]

Ulmo and azalea, I agree with what you said about Arwen's mortality.

About the death of Arwen: It was said that she was "not yet weary of her days" when Aragorn laid himself down to die. But she lived less than a year after Aragorn's death, then she also chose to die.

I can very well understand the grief of Elrond, who was parted from his daughter "by a doom beyond the end of the world". But I don't quite understand Arwen's devastating grief at Aragorn's death. She had chosen to become like a mortal woman, and share the Doom of Men. Wouldn't that imply that she would meet Aragorn again, after death? Aragorn says to her:

In sorrow we must go, but not in despair. Behold! We are not bound forever to the circles of the world, and beyond them is more than memory.

Aragorn lived up to his name. he had Estel.

[gollum9630]

Thats what iwas saying, It was her choice until Elrond left.

[samwise of the shire]

Wait. I have a couple of theories, but if they make any sense I dont know.
#1. If Arwen gave Frodo her place on the boat, then maybe they traded their mortality? So then Frodo became immortal, and Arwen became mortal. But if that's so then what about Sam and Gimli? Who traded with them? Or was it the Ringbearer thing coming up again?but then Gimli wasn't a Ringbearer or an elf...just an elf friend. Aragorn was an Elf friend too...or is there a difference?*shrugs*
#2. What if Arwens Immortality was confined in the Jewel she gave Frodo after her wedding? So if she gave it away then Frodo would become immortal. But that's stupid so...
Help
Cheers,
Sam

[gollum9630]

For the first, because Frodo and Sam were ringbearers they had to go, and Gimli was invited by Legolas, immortality had nothing to do with, and for the second one, that is what i thought as well, but i am not to sure about it.