The Moral Belittling of Faramir in TTT.

[Grey_Wolf]

How come PJ belittled Faramir by having him succumb to the lure of the ring when in the book he was adamantly against taking the ring from Frodo. In fact he stated that "if I found it by the roadside I wouldn't pick it up".

[markedel]

It's dramatically effective-for the general public, which after all, hasn't read the book, or has done so only casually.

[BeardofPants]

He didn't succumb to the lure of the ring - he wanted to take it to Gondor, granted, but he didn't personally succumb.

[squinteyedsoutherner]

It is because the writers either do not grasp what made the book a work of genius, or they do not care. My money is on the former.

With all do respect beard, wanting to take the ring to Gondor puts Faramir on the wrong side of the book's theme. The minute book Faramir understands that Frodo has the ring of power and is bringing it to Mordor he lets him go. If the character does anything different, the structure of the theme is severely weakened. Movie Faramir changes his mind only when he sees the problem the ring would cause in Gondor, that is pragmatism, not at all the same motivation. I ranted more on this in the "mean Faramir" thread.

This Faramir change cannot be defended, Jackson really, really blew this character. This ranks with the elvish C.P.R. Frodo was given at the ford in the first film.

[Lizra]

Maybe they only wanted Aragorn to have the power to rise above temptation, to make him seem heads above all other "weak men", thus the "KING"! ? I dunno!

[Kalimac]

My feeling is that the character of Faramir suffered from cut scene syndrome. In other words there is a good chance that scenes may be added back into the Special Edition TTT. I have heard of at least one cut scene that may have made all the difference with the way this character was viewed.

(The reported scene that was filmed included these switched lines from Sam to Faramir )

In the cut scene, it is Faramir who stands looking at a dead soldier and remarks, "I wonder what his name was, where his home is, his family. Was he really evil at heart, or did the Dark Lord deceive him, as he has deceived so many others? What lies or threats led him on the long march from his home?"

I do think that we need to keep in mind that PJ filmed all three movies at the same time. The Faramir that people miss may show up yet in Return of the King. In fact, there are spoiler reports that indicate that he will. Below are some spoilers from Ain't It Cool News. Harry Knowles paid a visit to the set of LOtR when they were filming key scenes between Faramir, Gandalf, Denethor, and Pippin. Here is just a sample of the scenes from Return of the King:

AICN: When I hit the set I see a new scene is being readied! This is the scene where Faramir tells Gandalf the battalions of orcs are on their way. And when Faramir looks eyes with Pippen, Gandalf realizes this isn’t the first Halfling he’s seen… and finds out that Frodo and Sam are still alive and still working on their mission. Watching David Wenham with that tired look of absolution upon his brow as he reveals his news. The look of joy and hope upon Billy Boyd’s Peregrin Took exclaim, "Frodo and Sam!? You’ve seen them?!?! They’re Alive?!?!?"

Minas Tirith Language Warning

First, here’s the scene. Gandalf "Faramir… Faramir… Your Father’s will has turned to madness and evil. Do not throw your life away so rashly" Faramir (Riding horse back in full armor a melancholy look of determination upon his brow) "Where does my allegiance lie if not here. This is the city of the men of Numenor. I will gladly give my life to defend her beauty, her memory, her wisdom" Gandalf "Your father loves you Faramir… he’ll remember it before the end" NOW… Here is the direction. Peter to Faramir… "You know that first part of your line… ‘Where does my allegiance lie if not here’… Why not try that line like you are telling Gandalf.. ‘don’t do this, don’t try to come between me and my father’" David (Faramir) has this look like he gets it, shakes his head in affirmation… Meanwhile… as the playback begins on the Faramir riding, the shot starts on Peter’s children… watching the men ride off in their armor. This take jives and Peter calls for the break for lunch. David comes back in…. Approaches the monitor… Weta takes a shot of him…. His armor is being removed… and he’s focusing on his performance. Studying himself… to see if he can do it better… if he’s happy. In the shot of Faramir… you can see a look of love as he describes why he leaves… for what he fights. There’s a half distant dream and a spark of idealism. The sound of hoofs coming down… crunching the gravely ground. This really is something. I know this scene.

Faramir, Gandalf, and Denethor Language Warning

I march back to set, to find all the statues along the left side of the building removed as the crew had redressed that area as a corridor in Minas Tirith that contains a rather poignant quiet moment between Pippin and Faramir. The moment comes after Pippin has his chainmail and Gondorian battle outfit… no bigger than that of a child’s. Faramir comes up… amused by the little Pippin and his bravery… They share a laugh, when Pippin asks him, "Your father, Why is he so angry?" there is a pause, "I only ask because I would help if I could…" And Faramir tells him, "There is nothing you can do, Pippin (pause) look after yourself." Pippin makes me smile. And David Wenham’s Faramir is noble and tragic at the same time…. The ‘lessor son’ with the ill father. David plays it with a wonderful breadth of emotion… a killer smile, strong and understanding eyes.

Faramir and Pippin Language Warning

[Elf.Freak]

i didn't like the movie version of Faramir, he was too mean

[Celebréiel]

I think i heard PJ say somewhere, that they had been setting the ring up as this powerful 'character' almost, that made everyone around it want it so bad. And Galadriel and Gandalf both could 'barely' resist it And to have this simple mortal totally refuse the ring would seem weirdly inconsistant in the movie and something like that...I cant remember what else he said. bleah..
~Celebréiel

[Dúnedain]

Well, even though it isn't the Faramir we know from the book, he still becomes that with the simple line of "Then it is forfeit, release them!" I think that simple line separates him from Boromir and from the path everyone thought he was going down, and it also brings back the Faramir we know and love...

[squinteyedsoutherner]

I think Faramir suffered from one of Jackson's "last minute change of heart" formulas that are running thorugh this film. He has ruined (In my opinion) many characters so far with this.

Aragorn not wanting to be king
Treebeard not wanting to fight
Elrond not wanting Arwen to be with Aragorn
Arwen leaving middle earth
Faramir wanting to send the ring to Gondor
Elrond needing Galadriel's motivational speech


It's all very predictable and very lame.

[Lizra]

Never, in a million years, would I have "predicted" any of that stuff!

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by squinteyedsoutherner
Arwen leaving middle earth

Ummmm, what movie did you see? All they showed was her walking away with elves, they didn't show her leaving middle earth....

[squinteyedsoutherner]

I thought my last post was pretty clear.

Jackson is trying to make it seem like Arwen has taken her father's advice and is leaving middle earth. Aragorn also says this to Eowyn on the way to Helm's Deep.

"she is sailing to the undying lands with all that is left of her kin"

To the best of my knowledge I saw the same film as you

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by squinteyedsoutherner
To the best of my knowledge I saw the same film as you

LIES!!!

Thanks for clearing it up

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
Well, even though it isn't the Faramir we know from the book, he still becomes that with the simple line of "Then it is forfeit, release them!" I think that simple line separates him from Boromir and from the path everyone thought he was going down, and it also brings back the Faramir we know and love...

I have to agree with this. Also, you know that the characters in the books are many. Keeping track is a task in itself, and to compress this kind of thing into a movie is a great undertaking. I think that in the movie to simplify the connection between Boromir and Faramir that it may have been necessary to make them more alike at first to show their relationship to one another than to differentiate them as the books do.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by squinteyedsoutherner
I thought my last post was pretty clear.

Jackson is trying to make it seem like Arwen has taken her father's advice and is leaving middle earth. Aragorn also says this to Eowyn on the way to Helm's Deep.

"she is sailing to the undying lands with all that is left of her kin"

To the best of my knowledge I saw the same film as you

I think in this scene that Arwen and Elrond discuss her leaving, and she spoke in dreams to Aragorn about doing such, but it seemed to me in that scene when she is walking with the other Elves to go to the west, that this may be only a vision or thought of Elrond at that time.

[cassiopeia]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I think in this scene that Arwen and Elrond discuss her leaving, and she spoke in dreams to Aragorn about doing such, but it seemed to me in that scene when she is walking with the other Elves to go to the west, that this may be only a vision or thought of Elrond at that time.

My theory on this scene is that

Arwen is acutually going to Helm's Deep (or somewhere) to give Arargorn Narsil reforged.

[Elfhelm]

Originally posted by cassiopeia
My theory on this scene is that

Yeah, Elrond doesn't look happy.

To the original post: Why put a question on the message board like this? "Why did (person wh's not here) do (something I disagree with)?" None of us can answer for him. All you'll get is opinions from those who don't like the characterization and conjecture from those who think they understand the reason for the change. And since you probably understand the reason for the change, that's a moot point, isn't it?

So that leaves this as an opinion thread on the change of Faramir's lines and addition of Osgiliath. Use the search button and you will find that we've got a half dozen of those already. Almost everyone here has opinionated on those threads, so now we have to either repeat our selves in this one or not get to participate.

Well, I'll repeat myself. I don't like the Osgiliath scene. I wish they had shown Faramir helping Gandalf in the first movie. Once Faramir knows that this is the One Ring that Gandalf was researching, and that he sent these Hobbits to destroy it ("sent" is from Faramir's point of view), he gives them provisions and warmth in an otherwise bleak setting. Light moments in dark times. That's Tolkien.

And I will conjecture: But PJ must have wanted people to see with our own eyes what happens when a city falls to Sauron's forces. It may also have served to balance Theoden's statement that Gondor would not come to his aid - they couldn't! And it may also serve to validate Boromir's blustering "by the blood of our people are your lands kept free" or whatever they had him say. In cinema they have the edict "show don't tell", so I am guessing that PJ felt that all the statements by Faramir or Boromir or later by Denethor would carry a lot more weight if we got to actually see Osgiliath.

Too bad he had to alter Faramir, for me, in order to do it, because I really care about Eowyn and right now it seems she's going to settle for second best, which is a kind of cage.

[samwise of the shire]

The Faramir change wasn't that bad. Didn't Faramir say in the book "Here I have you in the wild two halfings, a host of men at my call and the Ring of Rings...a chance for Faramir captain of Gondro to show his quality" I thinkt hat during that bit he is contemplating about stealing the Ring...it's just that his GOODNESS over comes it...as it does in the movie. Faramir makes the SAME dicision in the movie as he does in the book... that is to let Frodo and Sam free to continue their quest...it just took longer for him to make it in the movie. So essentially Faramir was hardly changed at all...save that the lure of the Ring was stronger on him than it was in the book...he finally let's Frodo go.
Also if you think about it it's setting us up for ROTK...Denethor hates Faramir which is probably why Faramir chaptured Sam and Frodo...to impress and get recognition from his father, but when he realized that the Ring was evil (which was something Boromir DID NOT do, making Faramir better as far as values were concerned) he FORFEITS his LIFE to set them free...he's got the same values as his book character...it just took awhile for them to show up.
I think that Arwen is going to Minas Tirith. Did anybody notice the look on Elronds face? AND did you notice that there were not MALE elves in the train? Just female elves. So I think that those elves were Arwens maids and attendants.
Cheers,
Sam

[Beleg Strongbow]

You know what I like?

In Osgiliath, Sam has this line: "It's all wrong, Mr. Frodo. We shouldn't be here at all!"

Well of course they shouldn't; they didn't go there!