Where the Númenóreans destined to perish?

[Maedhros]

Even thought with all the gifts that the Valar and Eldar gave the Númenóreans, were they destined to be trapped by jealousy towards them. Couldn't they have saved their city and land. Was this their destiny?
From the Published Silmarillion:

Now this yearning grew ever greater with the years; and the Númenóreans began to hunger for the undying city that they saw from afar, and the desire of everlasting life, to escape from death and the ending of delight, grew strong upon them; and ever as their power and glory grew greater their unquiet increased. For though the Valar had rewarded the Dúnedain with long life, they could not take from them the weariness of the world that comes at last, and they died, even their kings of the seed of Eärendil; and the span of their lives was brief in the eyes of the Eldar. Thus it was that a shadow fell upon them: in which maybe the will of Morgoth was at work that still moved in the world. And the Númenóreans began to murmur, at first in their hearts, and then in open words, against the doom of Men, and most of all against the Ban which forbade them to sail into the West.

And this was before Sauron had come to Númenor.

[Nibs]

But not all felt that way, I'll point out. I think of it very much like Noah and the ark, because one could say similar things... "why save only two of each animal? The rest, which are many will perish in the flood. They're not to blame." And the answer, of course, is: there is no answer. What happened, happened, I suppose.

[Lief Erikson]

You're asking about Silmarillion predestination basically, correct? If so, there is a thread already devoted to discussing this topic, called "Ilúvatar created Melkor evil?"

I don't think they were predestined to be destroyed, because they had free choice. And they chose the path of evil, and as a consequence were punished for their sin. Are you asking about predestination, or not?

[Arathorn]

Perhaps a lot of side-switching went on within the Numenorian people and those that decided to keep faith with the Valar were spared and came to be with those who ruled western middle-earth.

BTW, aren't there Black Numenorians who also made it to M-E? I think 3 of their kings became Nazgul. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I only got this from the Tolkien Illustrated Enyclopedia.

[Nibs]

Originally posted by Arathorn
BTW, aren't there Black Numenorians who also made it to M-E? I think 3 of their kings became Nazgul. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I only got this from the Tolkien Illustrated Enyclopedia.

I thought a lot of Numenoreans went to Middle-Earth, but most mixed with the "lesser" men. I'm not sure about your question, but I wouldn't doubt it.

[Maedhros]

You're asking about Silmarillion predestination basically, correct?

No.

Are you asking about predestination, or not?

No. I'm asking about human nature. You have the Númenóreans who had basically everything that a civilization of Men ever had, and still they ended up being destroyed. I wonder if that is how Tolkien view humans, I wonder if we are destined for failure in his eyes.

[Wayfarer]

I don't think that the numenoreans suffered from anything that wasn't common to man. almost everybody fears death, and only a few enlightened souls ever willingly give up their lives. The numenoreans simply fell back from the wisdom they had achieved to the foolishness of the shadow-men.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Maedhros
No. I'm asking about human nature. You have the Númenóreans who had basically everything that a civilization of Men ever had, and still they ended up being destroyed. I wonder if that is how Tolkien view humans, I wonder if we are destined for failure in his eyes.

This made me think of a passage from Letters, #338:

...a tale supposed to refer to the end of the reign of Eldarion about 100 years after the death of Aragorn. Then I of course discovered that the King's Peace would contain no tales worth recounting; and his wars would have little interest after the overthrow of Sauron; but that almost certainly a restlessness would appear about then, owing to the (it seems) inevitable boredom of Men with the good: there would be secret societies practising dark cults, and 'orc-cults' among adolescents.

[Lollypopgurl]

Well, they had everything they could possibly want. The only thing they are lacking is immortality. And if Elros had just chosen to be immortal, they would have it.

Maybe the Númenóreans had it too good.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Lollypopgurl
Well, they had everything they could possibly want. The only thing they are lacking is immortality. And if Elros had just chosen to be immortal, they would have it.

Maybe the Númenóreans had it too good.

If Elros had chosen to be an Elf then there would have been none of it. He would have then been an Elf, like Elrond.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by Arathorn
.BTW, aren't there Black Numenorians who also made it to M-E?

Lot of Westerneese of faithful, Kings Men (Black), and prior to that schism went to ME. They had colonies up and down the littorial, including many south of the LoTR map (Numenor was fairly far south, southwest of Mordor). The center for the Kings men was Umbar. The other southerly colonies were near to Numenor and thus more likley dominated by Kings men. The faithful headed mostly to the northerly colonies to be farther from the king AND closer to the elvish kingdoms.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Since reading in HoME about mens downfall (to Melkor) myth of their immortality being taken from them or their mortal lifetime shortened, with Finrod then surmising the the later may have actually occured, I have begun to supect that the Westernesse longevity was not so much as a new gift (particularly since the Valar seem limited in their ability to make fundemental changes in such) but a RESTORATION of mans original lifespan which had been decreased in the past when they worshiped Melkor.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
Since reading in HoME about mens downfall (to Melkor) myth of their immortality being taken from them or their mortal lifetime shortened, with Finrod then surmising the the later may have actually occured, I have begun to supect that the Westernesse longevity was not so much as a new gift (particularly since the Valar seem limited in their ability to make fundemental changes in such) but a RESTORATION of mans original lifespan which had been decreased in the past when they worshiped Melkor.

Ahhh! I take it you are refering to the Athrabeth. Why do you think in the Silmarillion that it says "The years of the Edain were lengthened after their coming into Beleriand?"

[Lefty Scaevola]

In some part of HoME JRRT worked on the idea that Elven and Human boied are same at conception or birth, and that the physical differences (like lifetime) between them are made by the differences in the elvish and human spirits melded to them. He goes on to say that it are very hard to distinquish between Elven and Human infants and toddlers, but that the diferences become more visable as the grow up. This would explain the easy fertility in the mixed couples; the GENEs are the same species, but the spirit soul is different. This leads me into to a theory of the fading lifetime of the Westernesse, that as their spirits become more corrupt and oriented to Morgoth, with debased spirits, the more debased their physical body becomes.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Ahhh! I take it you are refering to the Athrabeth. Why do you think in the Silmarillion that it says "The years of the Edain were lengthened after their coming into Beleriand?"

The Edain were the faithful ones, weren't they, those of Men who eventually turned from Melkor and fled from him, westwards into Beleriand, and their lenghtened lifespan was a reward.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Artanis
The Edain were the faithful ones, weren't they, those of Men who eventually turned from Melkor and fled from him, westwards into Beleriand, and their lenghtened lifespan was a reward.

Could it also have been that the further west you went, the more your lifespan increased? Also, what about their exposure to the Eldar and living among them and their lifestyle?

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Could it also have been that the further west you went, the more your lifespan increased?

The phenomenon of the West attaining importance in Tolkien's work is interesting, because, as we know, Numeanore was based slightly on Egyptian culture. Now in the Dynastic Periods of Egypt, the West was very much an important aspect of the Egyptian Cult of the Dead. I understand that this was also the case for some Meso-American cultures as well. Sorta interesting how Tolkien appears to have taken the opposite, in that the West seems to home those that are long-lived or immortal. The west isn't usually used to represent longevity (the sun setting, and all.)

[/end ramble]

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
The phenomenon of the West attaining importance in Tolkien's work is interesting, because, as we know, Numeanore was based slightly on Egyptian culture. Now in the Dynastic Periods of Egypt, the West was very much an important aspect of the Egyptian Cult of the Dead. I understand that this was also the case for some Meso-American cultures as well. Sorta interesting how Tolkien appears to have taken the opposite, in that the West seems to home those that are long-lived or immortal. The west isn't usually used to represent longevity (the sun setting, and all.)

[/end ramble]

Very interesting BoP.

[BeardofPants]

Do I get a pat on the head with that?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Do I get a pat on the head with that?

Sure, How hard would you like it to be? Let me find my Grond. It is laying around here somewhere.