Your thoughts on animal rights

afro-elf · 09-04-2002, 07:41 PM

Your thoughts on animal rights.

***Ben*** · 09-04-2002, 07:55 PM

Birds should be allowed to hold elective office?

BeardofPants · 09-04-2002, 07:59 PM

Yes, but then there's the problem of them crapping every where. Oh wait: we like being crapped on, don't we?

jerseydevil · 09-04-2002, 08:10 PM

Well i don't think the Constitution protects animals.

Also - I think all animals should be paw and claw printed and we should have weekly drug testing for all animals. Also they should all be required to wear identity collars and homing beacons so we know where they are at all times.

osszie · 09-04-2002, 08:25 PM

oh well.........animals should have the same rights as us.........

it's a shame that they don't steal, lie, cheat, rape, murder (with the exception of mink), go to war, or conciously treat each other with evil intent

oh and if an enimal ever comes up with a chemical formula to make its life better (make-up, oil, smoking etc etc), maybe it will then prove itself to be intelligent enough to test it on a so-called "lower species" of life.

animals should have right.............but only to protect themselves from us

BeardofPants · 09-04-2002, 08:30 PM

Who are you kidding? We can't even protect ourselves from us.

osszie · 09-04-2002, 08:32 PM

exactly

jerseydevil · 09-04-2002, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by osszie

it's a shame that they don't steal, lie, cheat, rape, murder (with the exception of mink), go to war, or conciously treat each other with evil intent

That's completely not true. Animals constantly steal food from one another. Monkeys commit infanticide and they murder and also wage war against other monkey "tribes". Many animals will eject other members of their 'clan" for various reasons - look at the way lon wolves are treated among their own kind. The other animals are no different than us and we're no different than them. We're all animals.

BeardofPants · 09-04-2002, 08:35 PM

The baby creatures run in from the cold
Back to the nest just like the days of old
There in the safety of a mother's arms
The warmth of ages, far away from harm again.

No one wins
It's a war of man,
No one wins
It's a war of man,
No one wins.

- Neil Young.

BeardofPants · 09-04-2002, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jerseydevil

That's completely not true. Animals constantly steal food from one another. Monkeys commit infanticide and they murder and also wage war against other monkey "tribes". Many animals will eject other members of their 'clan" for various reasons - look at the way lon wolves are treated among their own kind. The other animals are no different than us and we're no different than them. We're all animals.

Monkeys?! It's APES, you infidel!

I believe Ozzie was talking about intent, and the only animal that has shown an action weighed with "evil" (in the loosest sense of the word) intent, has been the chimpanzee; rapes, and murders, in fact.

Bonobos on the other hand, use sex for everything. We should be more like them.

But yes, we are nothing more than animals. Big brains are overrated. The only reason we do so well, is because we breed like rabbits, and are very adaptable.

osszie · 09-04-2002, 08:43 PM

in response to jerseydevil:

yes but we are the only race of creature on this planet that will willingly commit genocide and will take a life in the name of "science". We will test a toxic substance on animals, even though we know it may kill them.

my point was that nothing else on this earth kills for no reason. Darwin may have been correct with his "survival of the fittest" theory..........but wot happens when the fittest become the absolute........i.e. us...........wot happens is that we take absolute control (we are after, after all, the race with no natural preditors).

BeardofPants · 09-04-2002, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by osszie
my point was that nothing else on this earth kills for no reason. Darwin may have been correct with his "survival of the fittest" theory..........but wot happens when the fittest become the absolute........i.e. us...........wot happens is that we take absolute control (we are after, after all, the race with no natural preditors).

Actually, that's a really bad analogy. In those examples, there are motivations behind the deaths.

And "Survival of the fittest" was coined by Darwins grandfather, not Darwin. "Selection for the best possible fitness" is Darwin.

And we do have natural predators.

osszie · 09-04-2002, 09:04 PM

perdanticsim......thy name is BoP.....thank the gods you're forcing me to use my brain

yes murders do exist in the animal kingdon (the minx as I have mentioned, and the chimpanzee).
Tho the reasons behind those killings are far more simple (from an animalistic point of view) than the many reasons man kills other species (please view my earlier post as regards to our killing animals "in the name of science")

I was aware that "survival of the fittest" was a phrase coined by Darwins grandfather (Darwin himself being a naturally (hehe) shy person) and postponing his own publications for many years before he used the phrase after his grandfathers death. I used the phrase here as it is usually connected with Darwins work.

We do have natural predators?........news to me......I've lived perfectly happily all my life (a blessing) knowing that I would not be killed for no other reason than my own actions.

BeardofPants · 09-04-2002, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by osszie
perdanticsim......thy name is BoP.....thank the gods you're forcing me to use my brain

Why thank you.

Quote:

Osszie
Tho the reasons behind those killings are far more simple (from an animalistic point of view) than the many reasons man kills other species

Are they? More simple?

Think carefully on this one.

Quote:

Osszie
I used the phrase here as it is usually connected with Darwins work.

Yeah, it's a pet peeve of mine. Mostly because it's not really applicable in the sense that it implies. But don't get me started on that.

Quote:

We do have natural predators?........news to me......I've lived perfectly happily all my life (a blessing) knowing that I would not be killed for no other reason than my own actions.

Well, it really depends on where you live.

One could argue that the natural predator for the human is... the human.

Humans are still susceptible to predation. Just maybe not in residential western society... unless you count housewives!

jerseydevil · 09-04-2002, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by osszie
in response to jerseydevil:

yes but we are the only race of creature on this planet that will willingly commit genocide and will take a life in the name of "science". We will test a toxic substance on animals, even though we know it may kill them.

my point was that nothing else on this earth kills for no reason. Darwin may have been correct with his "survival of the fittest" theory..........but wot happens when the fittest become the absolute........i.e. us...........wot happens is that we take absolute control (we are after, after all, the race with no natural preditors).

The only reason other creatures don't "take a life in the name of science" is because they don't have the knowledge and the brain.

Also - we have a ton of natural predators - our brain has just compensated and we have invented things that put us up at the top. But I dare you to walk into a lion's den or bear cave without a weapon.

I personally have no problem with using animals to better the lives of mankind. Sorry - but that's how I feel. At the same time - it did not bother me one single bit with the original Planet of the Apes that Zera did experiments on humans and disected them. Many people I know hated the movies because it takes a hard look at that - as well as religion.

If you want modern medicines and cancer drugs and HIV drugs and everything else- then we have to use animals - or else get a bunch of humans. If anyone is against animal experimentation and feels we should not use them - then I would expect those people to put their money where their mouth is and volunteer for the battery of experiments that is required for a drug to go through initial testing. Of course most of them will die - but it will keep the worlds human population in check and it is for a good cause anyway.

BeardofPants · 09-04-2002, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I personally have no problem with using animals to better the lives of mankind.... <snip> but it will keep the worlds human population in check and it is for a good cause anyway.

I DO have a problem with it; BUT I realise that at the moment, given our technology, that we need to. Only in medical research though. I dislike the idea of cosmetics being tested on animals.

Furthermore, is it really a "good cause"? Humans are parasitic. We strangle life very much like parasites. I don't know if I would call this a good cause.

jerseydevil · 09-04-2002, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BeardofPants
I DO have a problem with it; BUT I realise that at the moment, given our technology, that we need to. Only in medical research though. I dislike the idea of cosmetics being tested on animals.

Furthermore, is it really a "good cause"? Humans are parasitic. We strangle life very much like parasites. I don't know if I would call this a good cause.

Well then what's your recommendation? Everything we use has to be determined safe for humans first. Do you use makeup? I noticed that you only said you "dislike the idea of cosmetics being tested on animals." I'm wondering if you dislike it - but your not completely against it - because maybe you don't want to go blind from lack of study on eyeliner or get mouth sores from lip stick.

Why do you feel humans are parasitic? You seem to view everything that mankind does as being evil. It's sort of funny and sad at the same time. We also save and protect many animals too. We are the only species that can also think about instituting things that will save an animal from extinction. Humans aren't the only animal that causes another species to go extinct - but we are the only one that can conciously and DOES conciously do things to prevent it.

BeardofPants · 09-04-2002, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Do you use makeup? I noticed that you only said you "dislike the idea of cosmetics being tested on animals." I'm wondering if you dislike it - but your not completely against it - because maybe you don't want to go blind from lack of study on eyeliner or get mouth sores from lip stick.

I am against it. Completely. Make up is not a necessity (anymore).

I wear make up on occasion, but I only buy products that aren't animal tested. Many big companies now (like Loreal) use a type of synthetic skin to test their products on. That's fine by me.

Quote:

JD
Why do you feel humans are parasitic? You seem to view everything that mankind does as being evil.

Don't put words in my mouth, JD. I'm coming at this from a completely biological point of view. Remember, I'm not a big fan of the good vs evil concept... that suggests an ideological system that I don't subscribe to. First, and foremost, I swing towards science. Humans, in every sense of the word, are parasitic. That does not mean, however, that we are not capable of "good."

And as you know, humans are responsible for more extinctions than any other factor.

Duddun · 09-04-2002, 09:40 PM

It isn't a good cause if we really want to test things we should test them on our own race not other animals.

Starr Polish · 09-04-2002, 09:51 PM

While I am against animal testing for things like cosmetics and toiltetries, since we have other methods that are just as if not more effective, I am not completely against animal testing.

If it has to do with research involving things like cancer and genetic diseases, it doesn't really bother me. This is mostly because this could actually benefit us in a way that is more than petty, unlike cosmetic testing.

Hmm...I'm reminded of an experiment done on rats. One set of rats were exposed to hard rock/metal music constantly, and another were exposed to classical music constantly (and then, of coures, your control). The rats that listened to the classical music got through mazes faster and their intelligence rose.

They didn't get a change to test the hard rock/metal rats, because they ate each other.

09-04-2002, 07:41 PM	#1
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	Your thoughts on animal rights Your thoughts on animal rights. __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

09-04-2002, 07:55 PM	#2
*Ben* Retired Ent Join Date: Sep 1999 Posts: 60,631	Birds should be allowed to hold elective office? __________________ ---Ben formerly known in the forums as bmilder Owner of The Tolkien Trail and Entmoot. Buy Entmoot shirts and mugs!

09-04-2002, 07:59 PM	#3
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	Yes, but then there's the problem of them crapping every where. Oh wait: we like being crapped on, don't we? __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

09-04-2002, 08:10 PM	#4
jerseydevil I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Plainsboro, NJ Posts: 9,431	Well i don't think the Constitution protects animals. Also - I think all animals should be paw and claw printed and we should have weekly drug testing for all animals. Also they should all be required to wear identity collars and homing beacons so we know where they are at all times. __________________ Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

09-04-2002, 08:30 PM	#6
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	Who are you kidding? We can't even protect ourselves from us. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

09-04-2002, 08:25 PM	#5
osszie Elven Warrior Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 409	oh well.........animals should have the same rights as us......... it's a shame that they don't steal, lie, cheat, rape, murder (with the exception of mink), go to war, or conciously treat each other with evil intent oh and if an enimal ever comes up with a chemical formula to make its life better (make-up, oil, smoking etc etc), maybe it will then prove itself to be intelligent enough to test it on a so-called "lower species" of life. animals should have right.............but only to protect themselves from us

09-04-2002, 08:32 PM	#7
osszie Elven Warrior Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 409	exactly

09-04-2002, 08:35 PM	#9
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	The baby creatures run in from the cold Back to the nest just like the days of old There in the safety of a mother's arms The warmth of ages, far away from harm again. No one wins It's a war of man, No one wins It's a war of man, No one wins. - Neil Young. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

09-04-2002, 08:43 PM	#11
osszie Elven Warrior Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 409	in response to jerseydevil: yes but we are the only race of creature on this planet that will willingly commit genocide and will take a life in the name of "science". We will test a toxic substance on animals, even though we know it may kill them. my point was that nothing else on this earth kills for no reason. Darwin may have been correct with his "survival of the fittest" theory..........but wot happens when the fittest become the absolute........i.e. us...........wot happens is that we take absolute control (we are after, after all, the race with no natural preditors).

09-04-2002, 09:04 PM	#13
osszie Elven Warrior Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 409	perdanticsim......thy name is BoP.....thank the gods you're forcing me to use my brain yes murders do exist in the animal kingdon (the minx as I have mentioned, and the chimpanzee). Tho the reasons behind those killings are far more simple (from an animalistic point of view) than the many reasons man kills other species (please view my earlier post as regards to our killing animals "in the name of science") I was aware that "survival of the fittest" was a phrase coined by Darwins grandfather (Darwin himself being a naturally (hehe) shy person) and postponing his own publications for many years before he used the phrase after his grandfathers death. I used the phrase here as it is usually connected with Darwins work. We do have natural predators?........news to me......I've lived perfectly happily all my life (a blessing) knowing that I would not be killed for no other reason than my own actions.

09-04-2002, 09:40 PM	#19
Duddun I Antha Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: You expect ME to know? Posts: 784	It isn't a good cause if we really want to test things we should test them on our own race not other animals. __________________ If you say my name I go "What?" If you say my name twice I go and look it up in the dictionary. **************************** I'm Not Evil! ************************** If the critics say it's good, is it really That good? ************************** It's a bird! It's a plane! No! It's a balloon! **************************** Duddun, Son of Bubbun

09-04-2002, 09:51 PM	#20
Starr Polish Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Slow down and I sail on the river, slow down and I walk to the hill Posts: 2,389	While I am against animal testing for things like cosmetics and toiltetries, since we have other methods that are just as if not more effective, I am not completely against animal testing. If it has to do with research involving things like cancer and genetic diseases, it doesn't really bother me. This is mostly because this could actually benefit us in a way that is more than petty, unlike cosmetic testing. Hmm...I'm reminded of an experiment done on rats. One set of rats were exposed to hard rock/metal music constantly, and another were exposed to classical music constantly (and then, of coures, your control). The rats that listened to the classical music got through mazes faster and their intelligence rose. They didn't get a change to test the hard rock/metal rats, because they ate each other. __________________ “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” –Bertrand Russell

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