too merciful on Saruman

Brimvalir · 02-15-2002, 02:28 PM

I think that people were too merciful with Saruman and that he should have been done away with early on considering the deaths he caused the House of Eorl alone, not to mention damage and death in the forest and the attempted blend of the Human and Orc races I could go on and on ............

bropous · 02-15-2002, 04:19 PM

Welcome to the Moot, Brimvalir!

I guess you're suggesting that they should have gone ahead and dragged Saruman out of Orthanc and nailed him to an Ent, or killed him in some way. You have to remember that Curunir/Saruman was a Maiar, a very powerful being, and just killing him outright may have had nasty consequences, who knows?

markedel · 02-15-2002, 05:11 PM

And pity is a big theme in the story if you didn't notice

Kirinki54 · 02-15-2002, 05:49 PM

But it has always baffled me that Treebeard actually just let him go... And this is a instant where pity seems to have negative consequences, as Sharky could make more misery for the Shire, no?

Menelvagor · 02-15-2002, 06:00 PM

I think Bropous is right though, I don't think anyone there (save maybe Sauron) could really kill Saruman without some serious concequences. By being killed by wormtongue, whom he corupted and was thus his own creature, it saved everybody that problem.

markedel · 02-15-2002, 06:23 PM

Why would there be serious consequences. He's a maia mad into a physical form by the Valar on purpose. They could be slain. Gandalf died. No reason why Saruman couldn't.

bropous · 02-15-2002, 06:59 PM

Yeah, but it took a Balrog to slay Gandalf the Grey. Only Gandalf the White could kill Saruman of Many Colors, and who knows what sort of stricture was placed upon a Maiar killing a Maiar. But, I do agree that the negative consequences of pity are shown. Remember the adage: "No good deed goes unpunished". Treebeard's kindness bit the Hobbits in the hineys. Maybe Morgoth had it right.

Kevin McIntyre · 02-15-2002, 09:18 PM

I really don't think that it would have required any special abilities or power to kill Saruman (wormtongue in his corruption did not attain any powers) especially once he had diminished himself.

Renille · 02-16-2002, 12:07 AM

I think at that point, Saruman was really, really weak...so weak that all it took was a surprise to kill him. Normally, though, I agree with the others; Saruman was too strong to be killed by mere mortals. Maybe Saruman of Many Colors finally cracked after his master was killed.

FrodoFriend · 02-16-2002, 12:32 AM

I agree w/ Ren....even Saruman's voice was losing his power. He was a LOSER!!! LOSER LOSER LOSER!!! AHHHHHH!!

Anyway, the good guys, being good guys, had to be merciful and spare him.

I think it's interesting that Frodo's pitying Gollum is what eventually saved both him and Middle Earth; however, Treebeard & Gandalf's pitying Saruman only ended in the scouring of the Shire. Guess it just goes to show that pity, like most things, can go both ways.

olsonm · 02-16-2002, 02:25 AM

I thought Gandalf said, Saruman still had some power left in his voice and this influenced even Treebeard.

Evenstar · 02-16-2002, 02:57 AM

Pity was a theme in this book...and someone probably should have killed Saruman when they had the chance so save the Shire from disaster but I think that the whole getting his throat slit made up for it...doesn't anyone else??

coolismo · 02-16-2002, 04:41 AM

Pity is only a cover for good strategic sense. By having Saruman around you have a schism in evil's camp, contrary intentions amongst Evil and its host. Even in a diminished state Saruman represented a portal for el Blacko, bit like capturring an enigma code machine, the enemy has a line of communication but can no longer be sure it is safe or truly influential. Even defeated Saruman was another distraction for the eye.

Nimrodel · 02-16-2002, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by coolismo
Pity is only a cover for good strategic sense. By having Saruman around you have a schism in evil's camp, contrary intentions amongst Evil and its host. Even in a diminished state Saruman represented a portal for el Blacko, bit like capturring an enigma code machine, the enemy has a line of communication but can no longer be sure it is safe or truly influential. Even defeated Saruman was another distraction for the eye.

Great thoughts! I never thought about it that way before

***Earniel*** · 02-16-2002, 12:18 PM

I think Treebeard was glad to be rid of Saruman, at least then he could put all his interest in the new gardens of Isengard. Saruman was at that point merely a nuissance to Treebeard, although ents are patient creatures I think he was tiring from guarding Saruman. And perhaps Saruman was in such a sorry state that Treebeard didn't think he could do much harm.

Bregalad · 02-16-2002, 07:39 PM

Gandalf does indeed say that prehaps Saruman had a little of his voice's influence left, and was, in time, able to influence even Treebeard. But even if that is not the case, Ents just aren't cut out to be jailers. They tend to mind their own business unless they think there is some massively important reason to do otherwise. They are sweet and forgiving beings. They love the wild woods and can't stand to see anything caged. I am not at all suprised that they eventually just let Saruman go.

Khadrane · 03-22-2002, 11:41 PM

Quote:

I thought Gandalf said, Saruman still had some power left in his voice and this influenced even Treebeard.

He did. Saruman knew that Treebeard hated seeing things imprisioned so Saruman used his voice and Treebeards weakness(it's not really a weakness) to convince Treebeard to free him. (I think. I could be wrong. I often am.)

BeardofPants · 03-23-2002, 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bropous
Welcome to the Moot, Brimvalir!

I guess you're suggesting that they should have gone ahead and dragged Saruman out of Orthanc and nailed him to an Ent, or killed him in some way. You have to remember that Curunir/Saruman was a Maiar, a very powerful being, and just killing him outright may have had nasty consequences, who knows?

Why didn't wormtongue suffer from these undue consequences then? He would have run off into the wild blue younder, if he hadn't been shot down by archers...

FrodoFriend · 03-23-2002, 02:17 AM

Maybe not. You never know, maybe a lightning bolt would've struck him down out of a clear sky, if the arrows hadn't gotten him first.

BeardofPants · 03-23-2002, 02:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by FrodoFriend
Maybe not. You never know, maybe a lightning bolt would've struck him down out of a clear sky, if the arrows hadn't gotten him first.

True, or maybe he would have gotten run over by a bus. These things always happen, I hear.

02-15-2002, 02:28 PM	#1
Brimvalir Elven Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: California Posts: 103	too merciful on Saruman I think that people were too merciful with Saruman and that he should have been done away with early on considering the deaths he caused the House of Eorl alone, not to mention damage and death in the forest and the attempted blend of the Human and Orc races I could go on and on ............ __________________ Swords are of no more use here ... All that is gold does not glitter nor are all those who wander lost......

02-15-2002, 04:19 PM	#2
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	Welcome to the Moot, Brimvalir! I guess you're suggesting that they should have gone ahead and dragged Saruman out of Orthanc and nailed him to an Ent, or killed him in some way. You have to remember that Curunir/Saruman was a Maiar, a very powerful being, and just killing him outright may have had nasty consequences, who knows? __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

02-15-2002, 05:11 PM	#3
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	And pity is a big theme in the story if you didn't notice __________________ "Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"

02-15-2002, 05:49 PM	#4
Kirinki54 Elven Warrior Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: European Union Posts: 463	But it has always baffled me that Treebeard actually just let him go... And this is a instant where pity seems to have negative consequences, as Sharky could make more misery for the Shire, no? __________________ 'They need more gardens,' said Legolas. 'The houses are dead, and there is too little here that grows and is glad. If Aragorn comes into his own, the people of the Wood shall bring him birds that sing and trees that do not die.'

02-15-2002, 06:23 PM	#6
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	Why would there be serious consequences. He's a maia mad into a physical form by the Valar on purpose. They could be slain. Gandalf died. No reason why Saruman couldn't. __________________ "Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"

02-15-2002, 06:00 PM	#5
Menelvagor Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: lurking on the edge of conversations Posts: 924	I think Bropous is right though, I don't think anyone there (save maybe Sauron) could really kill Saruman without some serious concequences. By being killed by wormtongue, whom he corupted and was thus his own creature, it saved everybody that problem.

02-15-2002, 06:59 PM	#7
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	Yeah, but it took a Balrog to slay Gandalf the Grey. Only Gandalf the White could kill Saruman of Many Colors, and who knows what sort of stricture was placed upon a Maiar killing a Maiar. But, I do agree that the negative consequences of pity are shown. Remember the adage: "No good deed goes unpunished". Treebeard's kindness bit the Hobbits in the hineys. Maybe Morgoth had it right. __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

02-15-2002, 09:18 PM	#8
Kevin McIntyre Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bree Posts: 148	I really don't think that it would have required any special abilities or power to kill Saruman (wormtongue in his corruption did not attain any powers) especially once he had diminished himself.

02-16-2002, 12:07 AM	#9
Renille Elven Lady of Speed-posting Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the cheese state Posts: 988	I think at that point, Saruman was really, really weak...so weak that all it took was a surprise to kill him. Normally, though, I agree with the others; Saruman was too strong to be killed by mere mortals. Maybe Saruman of Many Colors finally cracked after his master was killed. __________________ Oh the thinks you can think! Think and wonder and dream...far and wide as you dare! When your thinks have run dry, in the blink of an eye, there's another world there... (from Seussical the Musical. Listen to it...watch it...really.)

02-16-2002, 12:32 AM	#10
FrodoFriend Halfwitted Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Eryn Vorn Posts: 1,659	I agree w/ Ren....even Saruman's voice was losing his power. He was a LOSER!!! LOSER LOSER LOSER!!! AHHHHHH!! Anyway, the good guys, being good guys, had to be merciful and spare him. I think it's interesting that Frodo's pitying Gollum is what eventually saved both him and Middle Earth; however, Treebeard & Gandalf's pitying Saruman only ended in the scouring of the Shire. Guess it just goes to show that pity, like most things, can go both ways. __________________ Fingolfin lives! ... in my finger! The Crossroads of Arda - Warning. Halfwit content. Not appropriate for people with IQ of over 18. The Fellowship of the Message Board Nyáréonié - The Tale of Tears

02-16-2002, 02:25 AM	#11
olsonm Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: minneapolis MN Posts: 920	I thought Gandalf said, Saruman still had some power left in his voice and this influenced even Treebeard. __________________ Gandalf lives...oh and Frodo too. Haldir Lives!!!

02-16-2002, 02:57 AM	#12
Evenstar Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Neverneverland Posts: 215	Pity was a theme in this book...and someone probably should have killed Saruman when they had the chance so save the Shire from disaster but I think that the whole getting his throat slit made up for it...doesn't anyone else?? __________________ "Frodo, Mr Frodo," he called. "Don't leave me here alone. It's your Sam calling. Don't you go where I can't follow." FRODO LIVES !!!!

02-16-2002, 04:41 AM	#13
coolismo Enting Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: south england Posts: 93	Pity is only a cover for good strategic sense. By having Saruman around you have a schism in evil's camp, contrary intentions amongst Evil and its host. Even in a diminished state Saruman represented a portal for el Blacko, bit like capturring an enigma code machine, the enemy has a line of communication but can no longer be sure it is safe or truly influential. Even defeated Saruman was another distraction for the eye.

02-16-2002, 12:18 PM	#15
*Earniel* The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium) Posts: 14,363	I think Treebeard was glad to be rid of Saruman, at least then he could put all his interest in the new gardens of Isengard. Saruman was at that point merely a nuissance to Treebeard, although ents are patient creatures I think he was tiring from guarding Saruman. And perhaps Saruman was in such a sorry state that Treebeard didn't think he could do much harm.

02-16-2002, 07:39 PM	#16
Bregalad Elven Warrior Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: KY Posts: 217	Gandalf does indeed say that prehaps Saruman had a little of his voice's influence left, and was, in time, able to influence even Treebeard. But even if that is not the case, Ents just aren't cut out to be jailers. They tend to mind their own business unless they think there is some massively important reason to do otherwise. They are sweet and forgiving beings. They love the wild woods and can't stand to see anything caged. I am not at all suprised that they eventually just let Saruman go. __________________ "They have called me that ever since I said yes to an elder Ent before he had finished his question" -Quickbeam This post property of Entmoot.

03-23-2002, 02:17 AM	#19
FrodoFriend Halfwitted Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Eryn Vorn Posts: 1,659	Maybe not. You never know, maybe a lightning bolt would've struck him down out of a clear sky, if the arrows hadn't gotten him first. __________________ Fingolfin lives! ... in my finger! The Crossroads of Arda - Warning. Halfwit content. Not appropriate for people with IQ of over 18. The Fellowship of the Message Board Nyáréonié - The Tale of Tears

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