Did Saruman die? And what of Saruman's ring?

[The Wizard from Milan]

So we know that in the Scouring of the Shire Saruman "dies". His body goes up in smoke and the smoke turns towards Valinor, but did Saruman actually die?
We know that Gandalf's essence somehow survived the Balrog and was sent back. Did Saruman's essence also survive? (and who knows whether he would be sent back)

A separate but related point is "what happened to the ring that Saruman made?".
Sauron's ring allowed Sauron to life in spirit form in Middle Earth. Did Saruman's ring have the same power?
What powers exactly did Saruman's ring have?

[Bombadillo]

When Saruman was killed, I think it's a good bet that he stayed dead. Gandalf was sent back after Moria because he had not yet completed the task that Eru assigned to him (which was fulfilled when the Ring was destroyed). I think Saruman's task was actually to become corrupt and shift the balance of good and evil in the world for a while. Which yeah was bad but ultimately necassary to see Merry and Pippin hardened by the Uruk-hai and friends with the ents, who, not coincidentally I expect, brought about Saruman's destuction right as he reached the height of his glory. If I'm wrong about what his task was, and he'd been sent to work as a good power, Eru probably dubbed him too corrupt and unworthy to return to ME, whereas Gandalf clearly proved himself useful.

That's a guess, of course. I don't even know if Eru or Mandos would have made that decision, but it sounded good as I typed it. Either way I never thought about what happens to his ring.

[me9996]

Originally Posted by The Wizard from Milan

So we know that in the Scouring of the Shire Saruman "dies". His body goes up in smoke and the smoke turns towards Valinor, but did Saruman actually die?
We know that Gandalf's essence somehow survived the Balrog and was sent back. Did Saruman's essence also survive? (and who knows whether he would be sent back)

A separate but related point is "what happened to the ring that Saruman made?".
Sauron's ring allowed Sauron to life in spirit form in Middle Earth. Did Saruman's ring have the same power?
What powers exactly did Saruman's ring have?

Saruman is dead.
And saruman doesn't have a ring, gandalf did but it wa a gift.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Saruamn was a Maiar, with only a part of his being invested in his physical body. The description of his deaths, with a visible eminence of his spirit being dispersed by a west (from the Valar) wind may indicate that some additional action was taken to punsih his spirit after his body's death. He very liekly be so weakened that he will be unable for long ages to assume a physical form.

[Pytt]

I thought maybe he went to the halls of Mandos, but after reading Leftys post, I'm not so sure.
I think, even if he was strong enough, that the other Valar would deny him to take a physical form. Could the Valar keep him in some sort of jail, or other to punish him, as Lefty says? this make me wonder, where do all the higher followers of Morgoth go when they are dead? Sarumann wasn't as bad, or was he?

And as Me points out, I've never heard about Sarumann having a ring before.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Originally Posted by me9996

Saruman is dead.
And saruman doesn't have a ring, gandalf did but it wa a gift.

saruman DID have a ring, me#

Saruman the white? i am no longer the white, white serves as a starting point, white cloth may be dyed, white paper may be overwritten, i am saruman of many colours, saruman ring-maker

the above is from memory, so sorry if it's slightly out

in his studies of the rings, saruman discovered the art himself, and used it to fashion rings of his own, we are not sure how many he made, or what powers they bestowed upon the wearer, but we know that he did make (a) ring(s)

[The Wizard from Milan]

To follow-up on what Chrys says.
In the LotR it says quite clearly (I think it is during the white council) that Saruman betrayed us and made his own ring

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by me9996

Saruman is dead.
And saruman doesn't have a ring, gandalf did but it wa a gift.

When Gandalf visits Saruman in FotR, doesn't he notice one on Saruman's hand? It's hinted somewhere that Saruman, who became a bit obsessed with Ring-lore, was trying to make his own ring of power.

Originally Posted by Lefty Scaevola

Saruamn was a Maiar, with only a part of his being invested in his physical body. The description of his deaths, with a visible eminence of his spirit being dispersed by a west (from the Valar) wind may indicate that some additional action was taken to punsih his spirit after his body's death. He very liekly be so weakened that he will be unable for long ages to assume a physical form.

This is interesting Lefty. I guess this was the death of Saruman's physical form only. But I'm a bit confused about what would happen to his Maiar self. I doubt he would be allowed to take a physical form again. (Wouldn't the Valar have to allow it?)

This is the scene where Saruman is killed in the book: RotK p. 264-5

_____Saruman laughed, "You do what Sharkey says, always, don't you, Worm? Well, now he says: follow!" He kicked Wormtongue in the face as he grovelled, and turned and made off. But at that something snapped: suddenly Wormtongue rose up, drawing a hidden knife, and then with a snarl like a dog he sprang on Saruman's back, jerked his head back, cut his throat, and with a yell ran off down the lane. Before Frodo could recover or speak a word, three hobbit-bows twanged and Wormtongue fell dead.

_____To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure loomed over the Hill. For a moment in wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing.
_____Frodo looked down at the body with pity and horror, for as he looked it seemed that long years of death were suddenly revealed in it, and it shrank, and the shrivelled face became rags of skin upon a hideous skull. Lifting up the skirt of the dirty cloak that sprawled beside it, he covered it over, and turned away.
_____"And that's the end of that," said Sam. "A nasty end, and I wish I needn't have seen it; but it's a good riddance."
_____"And the very last of the War, I hope," said Merry.
_____"I hope so," said Frodo and sighed. "The very last stroke. But to think that it should fall here, at the very door of Bag End! Among all my hopes and fears, at least I never expected that."
_____"I shan't call it the end, till we've cleared up this mess," said Sam gloomily, "And that'll take a lot of time and work."

I think this part here:
For a moment in wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing.

Indicates that his spirit form died also, or at least was banished to the Void or something.

What do you guys think?

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

i believe that saruman was banished into the void, i also believe that was sauron's fate also, so the three attempted dark lords were banished away until the final battle, in which shall end the world, or so legend is told, melko, sauron and curunir with orcs, against valar, maiar, eagles, eldar, avari, khazad, onodrim and tom bombadil

[The Wizard from Milan]

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

i believe that saruman was banished into the void, i also believe that was sauron's fate also, so the three attempted dark lords were banished away until the final battle, in which shall end the world, or so legend is told, melko, sauron and curunir with orcs, against valar, maiar, eagles, eldar, avari, khazad, onodrim and tom bombadil

Now, that would be an interesting book to read

[Twista]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

When Gandalf visits Saruman in FotR, doesn't he notice one on Saruman's hand? It's hinted somewhere that Saruman, who became a bit obsessed with Ring-lore, was trying to make his own ring of power.

Yes he did, however im sure he did reveal to Gandalf he had his own ring of power. Did he not tell him when he revealed him self as 'Saruman of Many Colours'?

Maybe I'm wrong...

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

i believe that saruman was banished into the void, i also believe that was sauron's fate also, so the three attempted dark lords were banished away until the final battle, in which shall end the world, or so legend is told, melko, sauron and curunir with orcs, against valar, maiar, eagles, eldar, avari, khazad, onodrim and tom bombadil

Sounds like Ragnarok (from what little I know). Is that in Letters?

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

no, but there are scattered references to 'the great battle', after which the elves will yelp yavanna, and the dwarves will help aule to rebuild arda IIRC, except that there will be no men afterwards for their fate is other than that of the world within

so, back to topic Saruman describes himself as Saruman Ring-maker

[me9996]

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

saruman DID have a ring, me#

Saruman the white? i am no longer the white, white serves as a starting point, white cloth may be dyed, white paper may be overwritten, i am saruman of many colours, saruman ring-maker

the above is from memory, so sorry if it's slightly out

in his studies of the rings, saruman discovered the art himself, and used it to fashion rings of his own, we are not sure how many he made, or what powers they bestowed upon the wearer, but we know that he did make (a) ring(s)

Eh, I think he ment he was trying to... Otherwise gandalf would have had more truble....

[mithrand1r]

Originally Posted by me9996

Saruman is dead.
And saruman doesn't have a ring, gandalf did but it wa a gift.

From Book II Chapter II Council of Elrond
p. 251 in my version (all of LOTR in one big book)

Originally Posted by Gandalf

'But I rode to the foot of Orthanc, and came to the stair of Saruman; and there he met me and led me up to his high chamber. He wore a ring on his finger.'

I think this, plus what other people said above, would indicate that Saruman was at the very least trying to make his own ring of power.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

the thing we don't know is how many he made, and what powers they bestowed, now that is something i would like to know!

[Nurvingiel]

Maybe he started small... Gandalf was right to mark that Saruman wore a ring, for it was the Ring of Toasting Grilled Cheese Sandwiches to Perfection!

I imagine that the Hobbits buried Saruman's body, wrapped it its cloak, and that the ring was buried with him. I can't really imagine the Hobbits looting someone's body.

[mithrand1r]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Maybe he started small... Gandalf was right to mark that Saruman wore a ring, for it was the Ring of Toasting Grilled Cheese Sandwiches to Perfection!

I imagine that the Hobbits buried Saruman's body, wrapped it its cloak, and that the ring was buried with him. I can't really imagine the Hobbits looking someone's body.

How about looting?

Sounds like Saruman was on to something. When can I get my Ring of Toasting?

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

not until i get my Ring of making coffee without letting beans into the cup

[me9996]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Maybe he started small... Gandalf was right to mark that Saruman wore a ring, for it was the Ring of Toasting Grilled Cheese Sandwiches to Perfection!

I imagine that the Hobbits buried Saruman's body, wrapped it its cloak, and that the ring was buried with him. I can't really imagine the Hobbits looking someone's body.

Looting, right?
And (if I am corect) there wa only bone left when saruman died.

The ring of Toasting Grilled Cheese Sandwiches to Perfection?
Nice, and much more usefull than a ring of power, all that can do is take over the world...