LOTR parrallel to the bible? Frodo vs. Jesus

Here's the thing, it seems that there is a parallel.

Jesus sacrificed himself to relieve us of our sins.

In LOTR frodo bore the burden of the ring to save mankind from the evil of Sauron, is this a parallel?

Hmm...
Maybe, but I am not entirely sure how strong a parallel. Still, I sense the possibility of an interesting speculative discussion

Well, given that Frodo only reluctantly bore the burden, and never had any pretension of divinity, I'd say the connection is fairly thin. Frodo lived, too...only his finger was "crucified." Besides...Tolkien wrote his own creation mythology for his universe.

Of course, pretty much anything can be seen as having biblical implications, and I'm sure we're about to see some pretty intriguing arguments from the big boys...

If anyone has a strong parallel to Jesus, it's Gandalf, rather than Frodo. Gandalf was a Maia, a member of the "angelic" race, who made himself incarnate. Upon doing this he was not allowed to use his power, but had to work for good by inspiring good in others. He died in his incarnate form but came back from the dead.

Edited to add: The above is just FWIW. Tolkien denied LOTR was an allegory, so we shouldn't take these parallels too seriously.

Glorfindel and Finrod died to save others and were then reincarnated. Just thought I`d mention this.

As far as Frodo is concerned, I don`t see the parallel. Bear in mind that Frodo did not destroy the Ring, he ultimately chose to keep it for himself. This is the equivalent of Jesus saying in the Garden of Gethsemane,

"Well, actually Dad, I think I`ll give this Crucifixion thing a miss and go fishing."

Which was exactly what so many of the more serious Christian critics found so offensive about Nikos Kazantzaki's (and Martin Scorsese's) Last temptation of Christ.

I recently wrote a report comparing and contrasting LOTR and SW and I used the Bible as the central theme to connect the two. It's pretty long so I won't post it here, but if ya wanna read it e-mail me at darthtater@mindspring.com and I'll send you a copy.

since in other thread we have show the similarities (i think that wor is better than parallel) of Melkor/Manwe and Lou-cifer/Michael, i´d say here that i also find similarities between Gandalf and Raphael: a walker, a "mover" of facts, a healer of hearts...

but, i agree with Eruve: we cannot take this similarities too far

If the bible was an influence to mythopeia in LOTR at all, then the influence of Norse mythology and ancient sagas is at least as big, and certainly even more important to the Silmarillion.
It is sad that so many people have abandoned their descent from Europe and exchanged it for Christian missionaries from Israel; but JRRT was well aware of his origin. This way, one could find parallels both to Christianism and Heathenism (Odinism, Celtic or Wiccan belief) in JRRT´s works. And I think the possibility of this alone logicvally denies any coherence between Middle-Earth and real-life idols. ME would be, was it influenced more heavily by the Bible or the Edda than having those sources merely as an inspiration or role model, mingled of Odin, King Arthur, St Peter, Raphael, Siegfried and King David. But this is not ME!
We can assume that JRRT wanted to write something which would fit into the genre of his role-models, but he would have been a very poor writer had he copied them or drawn motifs from them for his creation.
Unconscious influence, or divine inspiration, would be another case, but I think noone can believe that JRRT got inspirations from Jesus, Odin and Jahwe all at the same time when writing his books.

p.s. Why does the Boromir-posticon (or is it Gimli?) have horns on his helmet?

p.p.s. Elrond---Moses
Frodo ---the Israel people
(at the Ford of Bruinen---at the Red Sea)
Does it ring a bell? Is it important? --- NO!

Please try not to be offensive to others here. You're post was great till the ps and pps.

How about the Manwe/Melkor

Micheal/Lucifer

parallel?

In which points do they coincide?
I mean, there are many light- or fire-bringers in mythology - Lucifer, Loki, Prometheus... or Dr Faust...
Melkor is Luciferean for sure, but only to a certain degree I think - Melkor´s not a mimesis.
As for the Arch-angels, well, I´m not too firm with Judeo-Christian lore, sorry.

i have a friend that once painted a large canvas about Michael and Lucifer. Michael was throttling Lucifer, represented as a snake, but there was no anger in Michael´s face nor triumph: there was only sorrow. my friend requested me to find him a quote because he used to put a legend in his paintings.

i said: "Anger...fear...aggression. The dark side of the Force are they". he booed loudly. then i suggested to put a Tokien quote but his new boo was very explicit: "hey, don´t come again with your tolkienities..."

so i began the hard job to find a good quote from the Bible, and i must say i didn´t know where to begin. i was very moved by the pitiful gesture of Michael and i doubted i could find i quote which could remark that feeling. i don´t know how, but finally i came to Isaiah 14,12:

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!

victory! it was a painful lament for the fallen angel who once was the highest. i said to my friend. "here you have: a quote that fits to your painting and that resumes the feeling that Tolkien wanted to put on his Manwe"

Good posts, Sharku and Fat Middle!
I think that it is important not to overlook the wide variety of influences that are evident in LotR and the related books. Certainly Norse mythology should figure very much in any parallels that are drawn, simply because so much information is drawn from Norse culture. However, Christianity (and its related variants) are so deeply ingrained a part of the Western world that I think it is difficult not to apply parallels from Western religion to Tolkien's works. And, unconscious influences aside, I think that heed should be paid to Tolkien's detestation of allegory. Any modeling of Middle Earth on our world seems to me to be of the sort of influence that is with all of us from the womb to the tomb--the details of life, loyalties, hatreds, etc. In other words all those little things that define the human race.

I also think if one would try to analyze the influences of Christian and non-Christian (i.e. heathenish) sources on Tolkien, a conclusion would become evident that each affected a certain part of his writing more than the other. Which means, Christianity is the basis of JRRT`s philosophy, his values of pity, mercy and forgiveness, which become evident more than once in his fiction. Sagas and else, on the other hand, were more the foundation of his style and myth-creation.
JRRT objected Pagan views as barbaric and not touched by the light of God, but he liked the richness of their tales. He was deeply Catholic on the other side, and maybe it was a motif of him to write Pagan myth with a Christian philosophy behind it. I can remember that JRRT once wrote in a letter that LotR was "of course a fundamentally Catholic work" or such.
These thoughts are mainly speculations, but what good would it be had we the universal key of understanding to all of his fiction in our hands? No more speculating, discussing, no more mystery. I like it that JRRT´s works somehow hover between allegory and the objection of it.

And, Darth Tater, I never meant to be offensive at all; sorry if it could be perceived that way. It´s just that the horned helmet somehow upset me because it is a frequent, and totally wrong and uninformed, cliché about the Vikings. This was why I wrote "Hel", and I actually find nothing insulting in it; I could as well have written "by Odin" or "for all Ases´ sake" or such. Again, sorry (but then, hey, I´m a bad guy )

1. Thought that was a typo, not a pun
2. I agree with you about the hat actually, just didn't want any feeling hurt

good post Sharku!

Tolkien also drew much inspiration from ancient (classical/mediterranean) mythology and history. People put a great deal of emphasis on the northern and Christian influences in Tolkien, but he was shopping around in more than just two stores. "The Fall of Gondolin" is very reminiscent of the story of Troy, for example. And Earendil's journeys are very reminiscent of Odysseus' travails on the way home.

The Master has spoken! No offense meant Michael, I REALLY respect your work and lore of Tolkien.

I just tought something about Christian thinking and Tolkien's work. It's my second essay on the matter since I just lose my first one 5 minutes ago when I tried to post it!

I just wanted to show a parallel I found with the Christians values and a particular scene.

Take the scene when Boromir tries to get the one ring from Frodo. He doesn't live by the values of FRATERNITY and RESPECT. Great disaster comes uppon him for that too. The group parts in three sub-group, the quest's almost annihilated, the hobbits are kidnapped, he dies.

Then, feeling GUILT about his sins, he tries to REPENT by saving what he can of the party and fighting the orcs. He help Aragorn by telling him what happened.

Aragorn PARDONS Boromir for his sins as would a good Christian do and gives him the burial he deserve as a hero.

I know most of the cultures have ideal not unlike those but I think we really can say that Tolkien's work still find it's root in the Christianity even without him noticing, all this coming from our education. Anyway, just wanted to share my POV with you guys.

"These opinions are mine, not those of the Laval University. It is the opinion of the University that I should shut up now."

We can look in every religion and belief system and see parralells to LOTR. That's because all these have very similar trates. Some say it's because they're all derived from one religion, some that they're based on the same myths or borrow from other mythologies, but the fact is, they all share very similar stories.

i think it's just part of human nature to see things in light of your own religion. i, a pagan raised among christians, see bits of both paganism & christianity in the story; also Tolkien was devoutly christian & so some of that christianity will have seeped into the story whether he meant it too or not (in the foreword to my moother's copy, Tolkien admits that it's "a christian story" or something along those lines). i have christian friends who see christianity in everything - you can give them an ancient Greek myth & they'll find some connection to christianity; & i almost all my friends (atheist, buddhist, christian, unitarian, pagan, etc.) tend to see the world through religion-colored glasses. this isn't saying that people who see their own religion in everythign are closeminded, just influenced. i think that's what's happening here. and someone (darth tater?) already pointed out the similarities between stories of major religions.

for the record, the only strong christian allusions i've seen in Tolkien are the gandalf/Savior theory & the Melkor/Manwe/Lucifer/Michael thing that have both been mentioned.

Gandalf - comes to ME to aid in the fight against evil, flits in & out of the affairs of mortals, often less than appreciated, & ends up sacrificing himself to save his "followers," some of who will end up doing greater deeds than were done while in the fellowship under Gandalf (ex: delivering/destroying the ring, saving minas tirith, destroying isengard). He's killed by a servant of a great evil that thoroughly plagues ME. then he returns, because his work is not yet over, & becomes a standard for the Good Guys (yes, i know i'm stepping in a minefield there). Jesus - comes to Earth to give the rest of God's word to the Chosen People, flits in & out of the affairs of Jerusalem, often suspected of trickery & condemned for Sabbath-breaking. He sacrifices himself to save his chosen people, & is killed by the stooges of fear & ignorance, who plagued the Roman Empire & also the orld today. Jesus' followers, though great under his leadership, do greater things after he leaves them - writing the gospels, spreading the word, evangelizing, etc. Jesus returns, because he must prove his Father's glory, & becomes a standard for the "evangelized Jews" & early christians.

somewhere i found a quote from tolkien - "gandalf was an angel." i guess it's not too far off to see the maiar as angels, but i didn't even think of that until someone mentioned it above.

the similarity is there, but not obvious & not complete. if the author was anyone but tolkien, i'd wonder if this was a coincidence.

aryne *