symbolism

Varda · 12-15-2001, 01:12 AM

what does the ring symbolize? greed/lust for power/money/fortune? does frodo's quest have any little morals tied in, do you think? or is it merely a fabulous adventure story?

Churl · 12-15-2001, 02:48 AM

And you want those answers in 50 words or less, right?

I'm anxious to read others' responses … after all, Masters and Doctoral theses have been written about each one of your questions alone! This should be a good thread.

My personal response to each is kind of a non-answer. (Sorry!)

I believe that each reader draws different things from The Lord of the Rings. Tolkien himself said that he didn't like allegory, and that (at least to him) the War of the Ring did not directly parallel World War II, or anything else for that matter. Still, we can't help but wonder what symbolism was intended by Tolkien, as opposed to that which we read in ourselves.

Possibly people who have read the letters and/or the histories have better insight…?

Bombadil's PR Guy · 12-15-2001, 11:54 AM

Varda-what does the ring symbolize? greed/lust for power/money/fortune? does frodo's quest have any little morals tied in, do you think? or is it merely a fabulous adventure story?
Although Tolkien steadfastly asserted his loathing of allegory and moral agendas presented in the guise of story-telling, his work's portrayals of good and evil could not be so compelling had they been put forth by a morally indifferent author. Certainly, his vision is much grander than a George Orwell, so concerned about the facist movement; Tolkien's work is not subject to falling in and out of favor based on a current political climate. It is unavoidable to read Tolkien without seeing his work as a vast commentary regarding the human condition, past, present, & future. Depiction of such human shortcomings as greed, vanity, lack of perception, & impulsive decision-making are everywhere, and are shown to lead to downfall, as virtue is rewarded.
I believe that Varda's got the ring's symbolism nailed in a nutshell. Power/money/fortune really can be considered one entity. Perhaps Borimar's folly, thinking he could use the ring to defeat Mordor can be viewed as a lesson of how we rationalize the acquisition of power/money/fortune, justifying our greed by making claims of serving the greater good. Similar perhaps to the justification for slavery bringing order & christianity to the heathens, but becoming irreversably dependent upon the slave system, just as Frodo became so attached to the ring that he wouldn't have cast it into the fire.
So how then, do we interpret the ending? Was Frodo really such a hero, since only Gollum's intervention led to the ring's destruction? Could this in fact be seen as the Devine Plan (in the Music of Illuvator) turning the selfish narrow purposes of Gollum toward the ultimate good? Otherwise, didn't the success of the mission depend upon a fluke, which leads to accusations of a fabricated resolution (deus ex machina)?

Darth Tater · 12-15-2001, 12:56 PM

I'm not gonna answer the question. Rather, I'll simply tell you that when asked, Tolkien said the theme of this story (and, according to him, every human story) is "death".

Bacchus · 12-15-2001, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bombadil's PR Guy

So how then, do we interpret the ending? Was Frodo really such a hero, since only Gollum's intervention led to the ring's destruction? Could this in fact be seen as the Devine Plan (in the Music of Illuvator) turning the selfish narrow purposes of Gollum toward the ultimate good? Otherwise, didn't the success of the mission depend upon a fluke, which leads to accusations of a fabricated resolution (deus ex machina)?

Tolkien discusses this issue at length in Letter 246. The gist of the discussion is that Frodo's heroism is in no way diminished by his ultimate failure to destroy the Ring. His heroism lies rather in his sacrifice beyond all human capability merely to reach the Sammath Naur, and in his surrender to Providence (in the form of Gollum) at the penultimate monent.

Play Girl · 12-15-2001, 04:28 PM

I thought the ring symbolised life.
I liked how all the story never really finishes yet it could in several places it just goes on and on ending back where it started but with a different hobbit living quite happily in mad old bagginses hobbit hole.
Play Girl

Kyote Fields · 12-20-2001, 01:21 PM

Art, I believe, is in the eye of the beholder. If you look at a book/picture/painting/peice of music and want to see a reason or a deeper meaning behind it all, you probably will. That's why I can listen to The Beatle's White Album and not feel like I have to go kill someone Helter Skelter, Mr. Manson.
John Cleese of Monty Python, after they had broadcast the famous "Parrot sketch", was approached by a man who asked him, "That parrot sketch, That was a protest against the Viet-nam war, wasn't it?"
People will see, hear and believe what they will.

crow · 12-27-2001, 01:19 PM

I don't like interpreting the Trilogy. For me, it needs no symbolism to be enjoyed or to be great. I mean, it's a great adventure story, right? Unlike the Bible or 1984 or so many other books symbolism isn't necessary. But without interpretation the Bible would kinda lose its power and what would be the point of 1984? However . . .

Darth Tater said: I'm not gonna answer the question. Rather, I'll simply tell you that when asked, Tolkien said the theme of this story (and, according to him, every human story) is "death".

Cool! Tolkien said that?! What a guy! What an idea.

Now I just need to figure out what that means. Or maybe not. It's vacation and my brain is running on its lowest gear.

Wayfarer · 12-27-2001, 02:54 PM

the ring represents gold, hammered and forged into a vaguely circular shape, with a hole in the middle, and magical tendwar on it.

Doesn't it?

crow · 12-27-2001, 06:53 PM

I like Wayfarer's interpretation. Right on the money - unless you want to draw some life lesson or moral(s) from the Trilogy. I'm not at all against that, I just don't enjoy analyzing the Trilogy as much as other works of literature, such as the Hebrew Bible (otherwise known as the Old Testament).

CardenIAntauraNauco · 12-30-2001, 02:30 AM

Tolkien has said again and again that is was no more symbolic than the literal translations. People used to think it represented WWII. Which he said was not true. So as far as Tolkien intentions go he did not intend for their to be a meaning (as far as I know).

But I think one can put one's own meaning to it. Like Kyote Fields said Art of any kind is in the eye of the beholder.

12-15-2001, 01:12 AM	#1
Varda Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Carmel Valley, CA Posts: 146	symbolism what does the ring symbolize? greed/lust for power/money/fortune? does frodo's quest have any little morals tied in, do you think? or is it merely a fabulous adventure story? __________________ "Life's a journey, not a destination." --Steven Tyler, Aerosmith, Arwen's daddy MySpace

12-15-2001, 02:48 AM	#2
Churl Elven Warrior Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Pennsylvania, USA Posts: 128	And you want those answers in 50 words or less, right? I'm anxious to read others' responses … after all, Masters and Doctoral theses have been written about each one of your questions alone! This should be a good thread. My personal response to each is kind of a non-answer. (Sorry!) I believe that each reader draws different things from The Lord of the Rings. Tolkien himself said that he didn't like allegory, and that (at least to him) the War of the Ring did not directly parallel World War II, or anything else for that matter. Still, we can't help but wonder what symbolism was intended by Tolkien, as opposed to that which we read in ourselves. Possibly people who have read the letters and/or the histories have better insight…? Last edited by Churl : 12-15-2001 at 02:50 AM.

12-15-2001, 11:54 AM	#3
Bombadil's PR Guy Hobbit Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Western Michigan, USA Posts: 18	Varda-what does the ring symbolize? greed/lust for power/money/fortune? does frodo's quest have any little morals tied in, do you think? or is it merely a fabulous adventure story? Although Tolkien steadfastly asserted his loathing of allegory and moral agendas presented in the guise of story-telling, his work's portrayals of good and evil could not be so compelling had they been put forth by a morally indifferent author. Certainly, his vision is much grander than a George Orwell, so concerned about the facist movement; Tolkien's work is not subject to falling in and out of favor based on a current political climate. It is unavoidable to read Tolkien without seeing his work as a vast commentary regarding the human condition, past, present, & future. Depiction of such human shortcomings as greed, vanity, lack of perception, & impulsive decision-making are everywhere, and are shown to lead to downfall, as virtue is rewarded. I believe that Varda's got the ring's symbolism nailed in a nutshell. Power/money/fortune really can be considered one entity. Perhaps Borimar's folly, thinking he could use the ring to defeat Mordor can be viewed as a lesson of how we rationalize the acquisition of power/money/fortune, justifying our greed by making claims of serving the greater good. Similar perhaps to the justification for slavery bringing order & christianity to the heathens, but becoming irreversably dependent upon the slave system, just as Frodo became so attached to the ring that he wouldn't have cast it into the fire. So how then, do we interpret the ending? Was Frodo really such a hero, since only Gollum's intervention led to the ring's destruction? Could this in fact be seen as the Devine Plan (in the Music of Illuvator) turning the selfish narrow purposes of Gollum toward the ultimate good? Otherwise, didn't the success of the mission depend upon a fluke, which leads to accusations of a fabricated resolution (deus ex machina)? __________________ "Keep'em confused, Tom."

12-15-2001, 12:56 PM	#4
Darth Tater The man Join Date: Sep 1999 Location: MA Posts: 4,572	I'm not gonna answer the question. Rather, I'll simply tell you that when asked, Tolkien said the theme of this story (and, according to him, every human story) is "death". __________________ Visit the worlds greatest webpage! No, not The Tolkien Trail! Just click this! The Tolkien Trail ~Camelot

12-15-2001, 04:28 PM	#6
Play Girl Elven Warrior Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: If I told you I would have to kill you Posts: 159	I thought the ring symbolised life. I liked how all the story never really finishes yet it could in several places it just goes on and on ending back where it started but with a different hobbit living quite happily in mad old bagginses hobbit hole. Play Girl __________________ "Off the Record On the Q-T And very HUSH HUSH" Frodo lives!

12-20-2001, 01:21 PM	#7
Kyote Fields Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: California Posts: 218	Art, I believe, is in the eye of the beholder. If you look at a book/picture/painting/peice of music and want to see a reason or a deeper meaning behind it all, you probably will. That's why I can listen to The Beatle's White Album and not feel like I have to go kill someone Helter Skelter, Mr. Manson. John Cleese of Monty Python, after they had broadcast the famous "Parrot sketch", was approached by a man who asked him, "That parrot sketch, That was a protest against the Viet-nam war, wasn't it?" People will see, hear and believe what they will. __________________ No longer posting. If you'd like to write to me I can be reached at kyote_fields@hotmail.com. It was nice knowing all of you.

12-27-2001, 01:19 PM	#8
crow Hobbit Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Connecticut, USA, though I suspect my soul longs for another place. Oxford, say. Posts: 24	I don't like interpreting the Trilogy. For me, it needs no symbolism to be enjoyed or to be great. I mean, it's a great adventure story, right? Unlike the Bible or 1984 or so many other books symbolism isn't necessary. But without interpretation the Bible would kinda lose its power and what would be the point of 1984? However . . . Darth Tater said: I'm not gonna answer the question. Rather, I'll simply tell you that when asked, Tolkien said the theme of this story (and, according to him, every human story) is "death". Cool! Tolkien said that?! What a guy! What an idea. Now I just need to figure out what that means. Or maybe not. It's vacation and my brain is running on its lowest gear. __________________ Here's a pretty hobbit skin to wrap an elven princeling in!

12-27-2001, 02:54 PM	#9
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	the ring represents gold, hammered and forged into a vaguely circular shape, with a hole in the middle, and magical tendwar on it. Doesn't it? __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

12-27-2001, 06:53 PM	#10
crow Hobbit Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Connecticut, USA, though I suspect my soul longs for another place. Oxford, say. Posts: 24	I like Wayfarer's interpretation. Right on the money - unless you want to draw some life lesson or moral(s) from the Trilogy. I'm not at all against that, I just don't enjoy analyzing the Trilogy as much as other works of literature, such as the Hebrew Bible (otherwise known as the Old Testament). __________________ Here's a pretty hobbit skin to wrap an elven princeling in!

12-30-2001, 02:30 AM	#11
CardenIAntauraNauco Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: rural oklahoma Posts: 324	Tolkien has said again and again that is was no more symbolic than the literal translations. People used to think it represented WWII. Which he said was not true. So as far as Tolkien intentions go he did not intend for their to be a meaning (as far as I know). But I think one can put one's own meaning to it. Like Kyote Fields said Art of any kind is in the eye of the beholder. __________________ "We will have peace","Yes we will have peace...we will have peace when you and all your works have perished - and the works of your dark lord to whom you would deliver us. You are a liar,Saruman,and a corrupter of men's hearts. You hold out your hand to me and I percieve only a finger of the claw of Mordor. Cruel and cold! Even if your war on me was just - as it was not,for were you ten times as wise you would have no right to rule me and mine, for your own profit you desired-even so, what will you say of your Torches in westfold and the children that lie dead there? And they hewed Hama's body before the gates of Hornburg, after he was dead. When you hang from a gibbet at your window for the sport of your own crows, I will have peace with you and Orthanc. So much for the House of Eorl. A lesser son of greater Sires am I, but I do not need to lick your fingers. Turn elsewither for I fear your voice has lost it's charm.

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