Where will TT end? and other editing issues

***IronParrot*** · 12-02-2001, 11:54 PM

It's already been said that TT and ROTK will be edited so that the events happen roughly sequentially.

But then when will TT end? I find that the ending in the novel is the perfect cliffhanger conclusion to that volume. However, by the time Frodo and Sam even get to Shelob, the Pelennor is already under siege, and Faramir is already there; furthermore, the Grey Company has already taken the Paths of the Dead.

Possibilities:

1) The bridging between TT and ROTK will not necessarily be done sequentially. (I mean, juggling the dates here and there... who'll notice but us...) In this case, TT would probably end just after Shelob wounds Frodo and the latter is captured, as in the book, though ROTK does not progress so far along the timeline.

2) TT will end with the conquest of Isengard, the death of Saruman on the spiked wheel and the recovery of the Palantir. On the whole, highly unlikely, since it means that TT ends before Frodo and Sam even meet Faramir, and we'd see almost nothing of the Frodo-Sam-Gollum storyline.

3) "Eh, screw the timeline!" Would work with a bit of juggling, though the amount of time it takes Faramir to get from Henneth Annun to the Pelennor will be questionable, since it's really the "bridge" between Books IV and V as far as timing goes.

Issues to consider:

- Fellowship is three hours long. This is already taking into account the cutting of most of the journey from Hobbiton to Bree, which is partially offset by the actual portrayal of a confrontation between Gandalf and Saruman. The question: can we expect TT or ROTK to be about the same length?

- The Scouring of the Shire is being cut. That's a big chunk out of ROTK, which is already pretty short. The question: will ROTK be too short? Consider that the journey of Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli will probably be given much greater coverage than in the books, similar to the Gandalf-Saruman conflict in Fellowship.

Again, it's an issue of balance. It would be rather awkward if TT covered both timelines all the way to Shelob, which would mean including the Muster of Rohan and the beginning of the siege of Minas Tirith, and leave ROTK only an hour and a half in length in comparison to Fellowship's three.

potyondi · 12-03-2001, 02:09 AM

Frankly, I never even noticed where TT ended since all my copies of LoTR have been all 3 books in one volume.

Rogue · 12-03-2001, 11:23 AM

My guess would be that they end it with Frodo being captured after being wouded by Shelob and Sam giving chase, just like in the book.
That will end it in a cliffhanger and keep audiences salivating for ROTK. I doubt it will end with the victory at Isengard. I think Peter Jackson is going for an 'Empire Strikes Back' effect for the first two movies. (Which is funny, since Lucas borrowed heavily from Lord of the Rings, right down to the cliffhangers).

Darth Tater · 12-03-2001, 12:57 PM

A number of reports I've read say that Scouring is in, just different.

Though Fellowship is the longest book, ROTK has tons of huge battles, which would play out much longer on film. TT's ending is perfect, and I can't see them throwing that away. I wouldn't be surprised if the timing is shifted a bit, but if we stick with Frodo and Sam from the time Gollum leaves them.

Captain Stern · 12-03-2001, 04:36 PM

So the scouring of the Shire won't be in 'The Return of the King' at all?

Well that's just great

Comic Book Guy · 12-03-2001, 05:01 PM

From what I've read, the scouring will be in but changed slightly. Ever though Bill Ferny could be responsable for the scouring? As for the ending of the Two Towers, a good ending would be Samwise leaving Frodo for dead and walking into Mordor.

***IronParrot*** · 12-04-2001, 12:09 AM

But the real question is - if TT ends with Frodo being wounded and taken, and Sam in possession of the Ring... how much of the Aragorn/Gandalf/everybody else half of the story will be shown? Will it just go up to the recovery of the Palantir, as in the end of Book III?

Kyote Fields · 12-04-2001, 02:09 PM

What's the deal with Saruman dying on a spike!!! Is this just another rumor or is there more meat behind this one?

Rogue · 12-04-2001, 02:24 PM

I am wondering the same thing about Saruman. Perhaps the made him perish on a spike because showing him getting his throat slit would be too graphic for a PG-13 film.
By impaling him on a spike, it is much easier to use fancy editing to imply what happened to him without having to show the gory details on the screen.

This is all speculation of mine. I don't know if they changed his manner of death for other reasons.

Play Girl · 12-04-2001, 02:40 PM

It had better end with Sam relising his master is still alive and taken by the enamy.
There wont be a dry eye in the house.
Or there better not be.
Play Girl
xxx

PS I have decided that the merit of the movie TT must go on two things. I must be terrified of that spider and I must cry at the end. I nearly cried at the books for goodness sake if the movie dosen't stire me someones legs'll get broken!

arynetrek · 12-11-2001, 12:43 AM

NEARLY?

(if i remembered where i posted my after-the-Shelob rant i'd link to it - somewhere in the LotR books forum)

aryne *

Pailan · 12-28-2001, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by IronParrot
It's already been said that TT and ROTK will be edited so that the events happen roughly sequentially.

But then when will TT end? I find that the ending in the novel is the perfect cliffhanger conclusion to that volume. However, by the time Frodo and Sam even get to Shelob, the Pelennor is already under siege, and Faramir is already there; furthermore, the Grey Company has already taken the Paths of the Dead.

Possibilities:

1) The bridging between TT and ROTK will not necessarily be done sequentially. (I mean, juggling the dates here and there... who'll notice but us...) In this case, TT would probably end just after Shelob wounds Frodo and the latter is captured, as in the book, though ROTK does not progress so far along the timeline.

2) TT will end with the conquest of Isengard, the death of Saruman on the spiked wheel and the recovery of the Palantir. On the whole, highly unlikely, since it means that TT ends before Frodo and Sam even meet Faramir, and we'd see almost nothing of the Frodo-Sam-Gollum storyline.

3) "Eh, screw the timeline!" Would work with a bit of juggling, though the amount of time it takes Faramir to get from Henneth Annun to the Pelennor will be questionable, since it's really the "bridge" between Books IV and V as far as timing goes.

IMHO I think it is possible to overthrow Isengard and not kill Saruman until RotK. There is a return trip from the victory and perhaps he falls from Orthanc then.

While I agree with you on the books perfect ending, perhaps P.J. will use Aragon's trip via the Paths of the Dead as the connecting tissue. I suspect that maybe the Faramir angle will be down played and the efforts of the scattered Fellowship will be amplified. In particular Merry's adventure with the Riders of Rohan I suspect will be given more screen time.

So to sum up I suspect TT will probably play with the time line quite a bit . I predict the last scene we will see is Sam putting on the ring and.....

Pailan

Billadillo · 12-28-2001, 05:49 PM

Okay? What's all this about Saruman falling on a spike?

Somebody pleeeease explain, for I have heard nothing of this!

I really hope they don't change it...I loved that Saruman still had enough cunning to sneak away from the Ents and cause trouble.

What are they going to do, have Wormtongue push him out a window? Oh gawd...I hope not. Is Wormtongue even going to be in the movie? Or is Arwen going to show up and beat him up?

Somebody please say it ain't so!

bropous · 12-31-2001, 12:27 PM

Okay, I know we're all engaging in rife speculation here, but this "Saruman on a spike" kinda riles me. I surely hope that Saruman meets his end in the Shire at the hands of Grima Wormtongue.

As to how Mr. Jackson will end The Two Towers, I am with a few of my fellow hobbits here. The end of the book is a perfect natural stopping place. Sam realizes Frodo is alive, trapped in the tower of Cirith Ungol, and Gandalf riding from Isengard with the mischevous Pippin in tow. Talk about a tear-jerker, Sam crying in the dark, his master in the hands of the Orcs of the White Tower!

Miriel Stormrider · 12-31-2001, 07:26 PM

WHAT IS WITH SARUMAN AND SPIKES??????????????????

Will someone please explain these disturbing rumors?
Does this supposedly happen in the Shire or does Saruman never make it to the Shire, dying at Orthanc?
I will be rather upset if they messed with the scene a lot, it is so powerful the way Saruman has that last opportunity at redemption and throws it away, immediately meeting a just, but awful, end.

bropous · 01-01-2002, 01:32 PM

Miriel, excellent point. Saruman's throwing away his second chance to redeem himself, and his observaion of how Frodo has grown, standing at the door of the ruined Bag End, is really telling. However, one thing struck me about this: How did Saruman know Frodo in the first instance to rate his growth in the second? Just curious if you other folks could shed some insight on this.

Pailan · 01-11-2002, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Miriel Stormrider
WHAT IS WITH SARUMAN AND SPIKES??????????????????

Will someone please explain these disturbing rumors?

(haven't been to this thread in a while)

To answer something of your question about Saruman, it seems one of the movie spy sites turned up a photograph with Saruman impaled on spiked wheel thingy. Rumors have abounded since then that Saruman would meet his fate far differently than described in the book. The actor, Christopher Lee, has said since then that he will appear in all three movies. But was silent about the fate that will befall his character.

Hope this helps some.

KGamgee · 01-12-2002, 07:34 PM

My advice:
STICK WITH THE BOOK.

bropous · 01-13-2002, 01:17 AM

True, KGamgee, Saruman should meet his end exactly as he did in the book. However, given the highly controversial changes to the scene at the Ford of Bruinen, we might be a tad worried that Mr. Jackson will take a bit of "artistic license" with the Scouring of the Shire and "sharkey's End" as well. Hope to the Valar that he does not.

luinilwen · 01-13-2002, 03:05 AM

i guess all i can really assume is that PJ will try to end the movie with some length of closure, as well as providing a cliff hanger as he did with FOTR. i should think that PJ will probably stick somewhat to the endings in book III and IV as they adhere to my afore mentioned criteria.

as for what play girl said, i cried reading the book, even though i know the rest of the story, but i also got teary when faramir made his little speech, and i'm praying that he is portrayed accordingly in the movie.

12-02-2001, 11:54 PM	#1
*IronParrot* Fowl Administrator Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Calgary or Edmonton, Canada Posts: 53,420	Where will TT end? and other editing issues It's already been said that TT and ROTK will be edited so that the events happen roughly sequentially. But then when will TT end? I find that the ending in the novel is the perfect cliffhanger conclusion to that volume. However, by the time Frodo and Sam even get to Shelob, the Pelennor is already under siege, and Faramir is already there; furthermore, the Grey Company has already taken the Paths of the Dead. Possibilities: 1) The bridging between TT and ROTK will not necessarily be done sequentially. (I mean, juggling the dates here and there... who'll notice but us...) In this case, TT would probably end just after Shelob wounds Frodo and the latter is captured, as in the book, though ROTK does not progress so far along the timeline. 2) TT will end with the conquest of Isengard, the death of Saruman on the spiked wheel and the recovery of the Palantir. On the whole, highly unlikely, since it means that TT ends before Frodo and Sam even meet Faramir, and we'd see almost nothing of the Frodo-Sam-Gollum storyline. 3) "Eh, screw the timeline!" Would work with a bit of juggling, though the amount of time it takes Faramir to get from Henneth Annun to the Pelennor will be questionable, since it's really the "bridge" between Books IV and V as far as timing goes. Issues to consider: - Fellowship is three hours long. This is already taking into account the cutting of most of the journey from Hobbiton to Bree, which is partially offset by the actual portrayal of a confrontation between Gandalf and Saruman. The question: can we expect TT or ROTK to be about the same length? - The Scouring of the Shire is being cut. That's a big chunk out of ROTK, which is already pretty short. The question: will ROTK be too short? Consider that the journey of Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli will probably be given much greater coverage than in the books, similar to the Gandalf-Saruman conflict in Fellowship. Again, it's an issue of balance. It would be rather awkward if TT covered both timelines all the way to Shelob, which would mean including the Muster of Rohan and the beginning of the siege of Minas Tirith, and leave ROTK only an hour and a half in length in comparison to Fellowship's three. __________________ All of IronParrot's posts are guaranteed to be 100% intelligent and/or sarcastic, comprising no genetically modified content and tested on no cute furry little animals unless the SPCA is looking elsewhere. If you observe a failure to uphold this warranty, please contact a forum administrator immediately to receive a full refund on your Entmoot registration. Blog: Nick's Café Canadien

12-03-2001, 02:09 AM	#2
potyondi Sapling Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Calgary, Canada Posts: 13	Frankly, I never even noticed where TT ended since all my copies of LoTR have been all 3 books in one volume. __________________ Arrogance is bliss.

12-03-2001, 11:23 AM	#3
Rogue Hobbit Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Miami, FL USA Posts: 17	My guess would be that they end it with Frodo being captured after being wouded by Shelob and Sam giving chase, just like in the book. That will end it in a cliffhanger and keep audiences salivating for ROTK. I doubt it will end with the victory at Isengard. I think Peter Jackson is going for an 'Empire Strikes Back' effect for the first two movies. (Which is funny, since Lucas borrowed heavily from Lord of the Rings, right down to the cliffhangers). __________________ It's no secret that ambition bites the nails of success.

12-03-2001, 12:57 PM	#4
Darth Tater The man Join Date: Sep 1999 Location: MA Posts: 4,572	A number of reports I've read say that Scouring is in, just different. Though Fellowship is the longest book, ROTK has tons of huge battles, which would play out much longer on film. TT's ending is perfect, and I can't see them throwing that away. I wouldn't be surprised if the timing is shifted a bit, but if we stick with Frodo and Sam from the time Gollum leaves them. __________________ Visit the worlds greatest webpage! No, not The Tolkien Trail! Just click this! The Tolkien Trail ~Camelot

12-03-2001, 04:36 PM	#5
Captain Stern Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 319	RE So the scouring of the Shire won't be in 'The Return of the King' at all? Well that's just great

12-03-2001, 05:01 PM	#6
Comic Book Guy Best Ex-Administrator ever Join Date: May 2001 Location: Ireland Posts: 60,547	From what I've read, the scouring will be in but changed slightly. Ever though Bill Ferny could be responsable for the scouring? As for the ending of the Two Towers, a good ending would be Samwise leaving Frodo for dead and walking into Mordor.

12-04-2001, 12:09 AM	#7
*IronParrot* Fowl Administrator Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Calgary or Edmonton, Canada Posts: 53,420	But the real question is - if TT ends with Frodo being wounded and taken, and Sam in possession of the Ring... how much of the Aragorn/Gandalf/everybody else half of the story will be shown? Will it just go up to the recovery of the Palantir, as in the end of Book III? __________________ All of IronParrot's posts are guaranteed to be 100% intelligent and/or sarcastic, comprising no genetically modified content and tested on no cute furry little animals unless the SPCA is looking elsewhere. If you observe a failure to uphold this warranty, please contact a forum administrator immediately to receive a full refund on your Entmoot registration. Blog: Nick's Café Canadien

12-04-2001, 02:09 PM	#8
Kyote Fields Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: California Posts: 218	Saruman What's the deal with Saruman dying on a spike!!! Is this just another rumor or is there more meat behind this one? __________________ No longer posting. If you'd like to write to me I can be reached at kyote_fields@hotmail.com. It was nice knowing all of you.

12-04-2001, 02:24 PM	#9
Rogue Hobbit Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Miami, FL USA Posts: 17	I am wondering the same thing about Saruman. Perhaps the made him perish on a spike because showing him getting his throat slit would be too graphic for a PG-13 film. By impaling him on a spike, it is much easier to use fancy editing to imply what happened to him without having to show the gory details on the screen. This is all speculation of mine. I don't know if they changed his manner of death for other reasons. __________________ It's no secret that ambition bites the nails of success.

12-04-2001, 02:40 PM	#10
Play Girl Elven Warrior Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: If I told you I would have to kill you Posts: 159	It had better end with Sam relising his master is still alive and taken by the enamy. There wont be a dry eye in the house. Or there better not be. Play Girl xxx PS I have decided that the merit of the movie TT must go on two things. I must be terrified of that spider and I must cry at the end. I nearly cried at the books for goodness sake if the movie dosen't stire me someones legs'll get broken! __________________ "Off the Record On the Q-T And very HUSH HUSH" Frodo lives!

12-11-2001, 12:43 AM	#11
arynetrek Elf Lord Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 610	NEARLY? (if i remembered where i posted my after-the-Shelob rant i'd link to it - somewhere in the LotR books forum) aryne *

12-28-2001, 05:49 PM	#13
Billadillo Hobbit Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 23	What the?? Okay? What's all this about Saruman falling on a spike? Somebody pleeeease explain, for I have heard nothing of this! I really hope they don't change it...I loved that Saruman still had enough cunning to sneak away from the Ents and cause trouble. What are they going to do, have Wormtongue push him out a window? Oh gawd...I hope not. Is Wormtongue even going to be in the movie? Or is Arwen going to show up and beat him up? Somebody please say it ain't so! __________________ What has it got in it's pocketsess? Last edited by Billadillo : 12-28-2001 at 06:10 PM.

12-31-2001, 12:27 PM	#14
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	Okay, I know we're all engaging in rife speculation here, but this "Saruman on a spike" kinda riles me. I surely hope that Saruman meets his end in the Shire at the hands of Grima Wormtongue. As to how Mr. Jackson will end The Two Towers, I am with a few of my fellow hobbits here. The end of the book is a perfect natural stopping place. Sam realizes Frodo is alive, trapped in the tower of Cirith Ungol, and Gandalf riding from Isengard with the mischevous Pippin in tow. Talk about a tear-jerker, Sam crying in the dark, his master in the hands of the Orcs of the White Tower! __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

12-31-2001, 07:26 PM	#15
Miriel Stormrider Enting Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: sigh Not Middle-Earth :...( Posts: 59	WHAT IS WITH SARUMAN AND SPIKES?????????????????? Will someone please explain these disturbing rumors? Does this supposedly happen in the Shire or does Saruman never make it to the Shire, dying at Orthanc? I will be rather upset if they messed with the scene a lot, it is so powerful the way Saruman has that last opportunity at redemption and throws it away, immediately meeting a just, but awful, end. __________________ Chants We Love Entmoot, Yes We Do! Please Get Rid of Black and Blue! ~ Miriel ~

01-01-2002, 01:32 PM	#16
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	Miriel, excellent point. Saruman's throwing away his second chance to redeem himself, and his observaion of how Frodo has grown, standing at the door of the ruined Bag End, is really telling. However, one thing struck me about this: How did Saruman know Frodo in the first instance to rate his growth in the second? Just curious if you other folks could shed some insight on this. __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

01-12-2002, 07:34 PM	#18
KGamgee Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 103	My advice: STICK WITH THE BOOK.

01-13-2002, 01:17 AM	#19
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	True, KGamgee, Saruman should meet his end exactly as he did in the book. However, given the highly controversial changes to the scene at the Ford of Bruinen, we might be a tad worried that Mr. Jackson will take a bit of "artistic license" with the Scouring of the Shire and "sharkey's End" as well. Hope to the Valar that he does not. __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

01-13-2002, 03:05 AM	#20
luinilwen Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Sydney AUSTRALIA Posts: 368	i guess all i can really assume is that PJ will try to end the movie with some length of closure, as well as providing a cliff hanger as he did with FOTR. i should think that PJ will probably stick somewhat to the endings in book III and IV as they adhere to my afore mentioned criteria. as for what play girl said, i cried reading the book, even though i know the rest of the story, but i also got teary when faramir made his little speech, and i'm praying that he is portrayed accordingly in the movie.