I could use a little assistance!

Hirulin · 02-01-2011, 01:38 PM

Hi all! This is a question concerning copyright! I have recently started Engraving glasses as a way to earn a little extra pin money. I've looked online and can find practically NO-WHERE that engraves Elvish onto things!!! As I'm a fluent writer in the tengwar, I was wondering if I'd be able to sell Glasses which had the Elven Script engraved on then without getting into any trouble with the Tolkien Estate (We all know what they're like regarding the proff's works!) I wouldn't have thought that there would be a problem so long as I didn't engrave anything that was quoted in the books/movies (I was planning on doing names, simple messages etc!) Would the Tengwar be copyrighted do you think? I assumed not considering you can download the fonts and suchlike!!

Any advice would be welcomed!

Thank you in anticipation!

Namarie

***Jonathan*** · 02-01-2011, 04:16 PM

I can't imagine Tengwar being copyrighted. I know of smiths who make rings and engrave them with "One Ring to Rule Them All" (in Elvish symbols) and they didn't seem to bother much about copyrights.

Hirulin · 02-01-2011, 04:33 PM

That was my reasoning! I've been given a link to the Middle Earth Enterprises website so I'm contemplating getting in touch with them regarding it (although they seem to want me to apply for a license at first glance!!!!!!!) Hopefully, I'll be alright to do it and NOT get into trouble! lol!

***Earniel*** · 02-01-2011, 04:56 PM

When my mother went to the jewellers' for a One Ring cast, the jeweller said he couldn't inscribe a ring because of copyright, but then that was regarding the poem phrases in Tengwar, I think, and not directly the Tengwar signs themselves.

You could always contact the Tolkien Estate, I imagine, and get a straight answer as opposed to merely guesses.

Also, glass engraving is pretty cool.

Moving to the Middle-earth Forum.

Hirulin · 02-01-2011, 05:21 PM

Ah! Thanks Eärniel! I've litterallly JUST e-mailed them! lol! I've told them that I will NOT be inscribing names, places or quotes from the books, the only thing I want to use are the Tengwar! Just have to wait for a reply now! lol!

p.s. Thanks for moving the post, I wasn't sure where to put it! lol!

Hirulin · 02-02-2011, 07:14 AM

"Dear Ms Cadd,

Tolkien's invented scripts and texts written in his invented languages are copyright works and the Tolkien Estate does not give permission for their use in a commercial context. What you propose is clearly commercial, in that you would wish to sell your engraved glass, so the answer to your question must be a no.

Regards,"

Well, guess thats that then! I must admit, I'm more than a little dissapointed! That ws gonna be my main selling point! :-/

***Earniel*** · 02-02-2011, 09:32 AM

That's a speedy answer, I have to say that, even though it puts a stop to your plan. Perhaps you can look into other decorative alphabets that are not copyrighted? Some old scripts are very pretty.

GrayMouser · 02-02-2011, 10:20 AM

Extended copyright laws have become a blight on civilisation. Copyright should exist to encourage creators, not ensure their heirs keep sucking on the teat forever.

***Rían*** · 02-02-2011, 11:28 AM

That just stinks

Sorry, Hirulin ... and loosen up, Tolkien estate people!

don't try to hog every little tiny thing for yourselves

The Gaffer · 02-03-2011, 05:32 PM

Totally agree GM. That sucks. The Tolkien estate can GTF.

Make up your own script. Photoshop some Tengwar.

***Earniel*** · 02-04-2011, 07:09 AM

Well, as an amateur writer myself, I kind of am attached to the principle of copyright so no one else can profit off the work I have made. And if (however terribly unlikely) it ever actually generates any money after my death, I think it's only fair it goes to my heirs and not somebody else. At least for two generations, anything longer is going to be a bit silly. (My great-grand children will have to write their own blockbusters.

)

The Gaffer · 02-04-2011, 08:49 AM

Disagreeing with this instance of copyright law is not the same as disagreeing with the principle of copyright.

IMO it has gone far too far in favour of ownership and this inhibits creativity and innovation. In all sorts of spheres, not just glass engraving!

***Alcuin*** · 02-04-2011, 03:51 PM

The usefulness of Copyright depends upon which end of the stick you hold.

Large corporations regularly violate the copyright of small firms and individuals with little risk, since pursuing a successful suit is time-consuming and expensive. You can demand, cajole, yell, scream, and threaten, but unless you put down several thousand dollars in legal fees up front, and are possibly lucky enough to find a competent attorney willing to take the case on a contingency basis, you’re screwed: most large corporations will just tell you in no uncertain terms to #$%^ off and continue to steal material without batting an eye. Some of them are so brazen they come back and ask for a second helping of material to pilfer!

02-01-2011, 01:38 PM	#1
Hirulin Hobbit Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Sheffield UK Posts: 40	I could use a little assistance! Hi all! This is a question concerning copyright! I have recently started Engraving glasses as a way to earn a little extra pin money. I've looked online and can find practically NO-WHERE that engraves Elvish onto things!!! As I'm a fluent writer in the tengwar, I was wondering if I'd be able to sell Glasses which had the Elven Script engraved on then without getting into any trouble with the Tolkien Estate (We all know what they're like regarding the proff's works!) I wouldn't have thought that there would be a problem so long as I didn't engrave anything that was quoted in the books/movies (I was planning on doing names, simple messages etc!) Would the Tengwar be copyrighted do you think? I assumed not considering you can download the fonts and suchlike!! Any advice would be welcomed! Thank you in anticipation! Namarie __________________ Ash Nazg Durbatuluk, Ash Nazg Gimbatul, Ash Nazg Thrakatuluk, Ag Burzum-ishi Krimpatul.

02-01-2011, 04:16 PM	#2
*Jonathan* Entmoot Attorney-General, Equilibrating the Scales of Justice, Administrator ♎ Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 3,891	I can't imagine Tengwar being copyrighted. I know of smiths who make rings and engrave them with "One Ring to Rule Them All" (in Elvish symbols) and they didn't seem to bother much about copyrights. __________________ An unwritten post is a delightful universe of infinite possibilities. Set down one word, however, and it immediately becomes earthbound. Set down one sentence and it’s halfway to being just like every other bloody entry that’s ever been written. ☻

02-01-2011, 04:33 PM	#3
Hirulin Hobbit Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Sheffield UK Posts: 40	That was my reasoning! I've been given a link to the Middle Earth Enterprises website so I'm contemplating getting in touch with them regarding it (although they seem to want me to apply for a license at first glance!!!!!!!) Hopefully, I'll be alright to do it and NOT get into trouble! lol! __________________ Ash Nazg Durbatuluk, Ash Nazg Gimbatul, Ash Nazg Thrakatuluk, Ag Burzum-ishi Krimpatul.

02-01-2011, 04:56 PM	#4
*Earniel* The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium) Posts: 14,363	When my mother went to the jewellers' for a One Ring cast, the jeweller said he couldn't inscribe a ring because of copyright, but then that was regarding the poem phrases in Tengwar, I think, and not directly the Tengwar signs themselves. You could always contact the Tolkien Estate, I imagine, and get a straight answer as opposed to merely guesses. Also, glass engraving is pretty cool. Moving to the Middle-earth Forum. __________________ We are not things.

02-01-2011, 05:21 PM	#5
Hirulin Hobbit Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Sheffield UK Posts: 40	Ah! Thanks Eärniel! I've litterallly JUST e-mailed them! lol! I've told them that I will NOT be inscribing names, places or quotes from the books, the only thing I want to use are the Tengwar! Just have to wait for a reply now! lol! p.s. Thanks for moving the post, I wasn't sure where to put it! lol! __________________ Ash Nazg Durbatuluk, Ash Nazg Gimbatul, Ash Nazg Thrakatuluk, Ag Burzum-ishi Krimpatul.

02-02-2011, 07:14 AM	#6
Hirulin Hobbit Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Sheffield UK Posts: 40	"Dear Ms Cadd, Tolkien's invented scripts and texts written in his invented languages are copyright works and the Tolkien Estate does not give permission for their use in a commercial context. What you propose is clearly commercial, in that you would wish to sell your engraved glass, so the answer to your question must be a no. Regards," Well, guess thats that then! I must admit, I'm more than a little dissapointed! That ws gonna be my main selling point! :-/ __________________ Ash Nazg Durbatuluk, Ash Nazg Gimbatul, Ash Nazg Thrakatuluk, Ag Burzum-ishi Krimpatul.

02-02-2011, 09:32 AM	#7
*Earniel* The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium) Posts: 14,363	That's a speedy answer, I have to say that, even though it puts a stop to your plan. Perhaps you can look into other decorative alphabets that are not copyrighted? Some old scripts are very pretty. __________________ We are not things.

02-02-2011, 10:20 AM	#8
GrayMouser Elf Lord Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Ilha Formosa Posts: 2,068	Extended copyright laws have become a blight on civilisation. Copyright should exist to encourage creators, not ensure their heirs keep sucking on the teat forever. __________________ Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill

02-02-2011, 11:28 AM	#9
*Rían* Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!) Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Not where I want to be ... Posts: 15,254	That just stinks Sorry, Hirulin ... and loosen up, Tolkien estate people! don't try to hog every little tiny thing for yourselves __________________ . I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva!

02-03-2011, 05:32 PM	#10
The Gaffer Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: In me taters Posts: 3,288	Totally agree GM. That sucks. The Tolkien estate can GTF. Make up your own script. Photoshop some Tengwar.

02-04-2011, 07:09 AM	#11
*Earniel* The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium) Posts: 14,363	Well, as an amateur writer myself, I kind of am attached to the principle of copyright so no one else can profit off the work I have made. And if (however terribly unlikely) it ever actually generates any money after my death, I think it's only fair it goes to my heirs and not somebody else. At least for two generations, anything longer is going to be a bit silly. (My great-grand children will have to write their own blockbusters. ) __________________ We are not things.

02-04-2011, 08:49 AM	#12
The Gaffer Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: In me taters Posts: 3,288	Disagreeing with this instance of copyright law is not the same as disagreeing with the principle of copyright. IMO it has gone far too far in favour of ownership and this inhibits creativity and innovation. In all sorts of spheres, not just glass engraving!

02-04-2011, 03:51 PM	#13
*Alcuin* Salt Miner Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: gone to Far Harad Posts: 987	The usefulness of Copyright depends upon which end of the stick you hold. Large corporations regularly violate the copyright of small firms and individuals with little risk, since pursuing a successful suit is time-consuming and expensive. You can demand, cajole, yell, scream, and threaten, but unless you put down several thousand dollars in legal fees up front, and are possibly lucky enough to find a competent attorney willing to take the case on a contingency basis, you’re screwed: most large corporations will just tell you in no uncertain terms to #$%^ off and continue to steal material without batting an eye. Some of them are so brazen they come back and ask for a second helping of material to pilfer!

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