Elrond at the War of Wrath

[ecthelion]

From the silmarillion:

Of the march of the host of the Valar to the north of Middle-earth little is said in any tale; for among them went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they only learned long afterwards from their kinsfolk in Aman.

And from LOTR:

I remember well the splendour of their lances. It recalled to me the glory of the Elder Days, and the hosts of Beleriand, so many great princes and captains were assembled. And yet not so many nor so fair, as when Thangorodrim was broken, and the elves deemed that evil was ended forever and it was not so.

Was he there? Or not?

[Valandil]

I would guess that he - and the other Elves of Beleriand - saw them arrive and marvelled at them, but did not advance with them to the battle.

[ecthelion]

Seems weird, that he would see the army but not see the war?

Anyway I don't exactly have a clear idea of what that phrase in the Sil means. Did no one of the elves of Beleriand or the havens join the host of the Valar? Or those that joined immediately left? I'm not fully convinced...

[Galin]

If we use the dates from The Tale of Years anyway (War of the Jewels), Elrond would have been only thirteen years old at the coming of the host of the West (the revised dates for the last war of the Elder Days were given at 545-587).

In The Line of Elros it was said that Elros was born 58 years before the SA began, which agrees with these revised dates for the birth of Elros and Elrond (FA 532), and the end of the FA in 590.

[Elf of cave]

Originally Posted by Galin

If we use the dates from The Tale of Years anyway (War of the Jewels), Elrond would have been only thirteen years old at the coming of the host of the West (the revised dates for the last war of the Elder Days were given at 545-587).

In The Line of Elros it was said that Elros was born 58 years before the SA began, which agrees with these revised dates for the birth of Elros and Elrond (FA 532), and the end of the FA in 590.

But as you point out the War of Wrath lasted 43 years. We know Elves reach their maturity at the age of 50, so if Elros and Elrond grew as normal Elves they would have reached maturity in FA 582 which gives them 5 years to fight in the War, but being Peredhil they might have reached maturity even earlier – if they matured as Men does they could have fought almost the entire war. Besides, we know Huor joined his first war party at the age of 13 (or 14), so having Elros and Elrond join a war at the age of 13 may not be as unlikely as one might think.

Since we don’t really know much about Elros and Elrond after the Sack of Sirion (what were they doing, were they living with Gil-galad or Maglor?), the question of whether they fought in the war really comes down to these:

1) did Elros and Elrond fight with the Men of Beleriand, who we know fought for the host of the Valar?

2) did the Elves of Middle-earth fight alongside the Host of the Valar?

To answer the first question, then yes they may well have. What supports this is the fact that the Men accepted Elros as their first king. In times like these the leaders of people had to prove that they were great warriors and commanders or they would loose their respect and support among their people (an example is how the lame Brandir lost the favour of the Folk of Brethil when Túrin, a great warrior, arrived). Neither do I believe the battle-hardened Men who had fought long and hard in the War of Wrath would simply accept an upstart Half-elf – no matter his linage – who had never seen battle, just because the Valar told them to. Elros would have had to prove himself worthy.

The second question is much more complicated, and is purely based on my opinion and presumptions. I believe the Elves of Middle-earth did partake in the War of Wrath, and the reasons are these:

- they, more than any other (except Húrin and his family), suffered under Morgoth’s rule, and they would not have stood idly by when there was a chance to have revenge. And I think even had the the Valar forbidden them to join in they would have simply fought on their own, taking advantage of the fact that Morgoth would have been busy fighting the main host, and doing as much damage to his forces whenever and wherever they could.

- yes it all sounds so grand with the coming of the mighty Host of the Valar, but was it really? I mean probably around 90% of the Elven Host would have been born in the Bliss of Valinor, and would have never seen an orc nor wielded a weapon in battle. We know that no matter how much you train it can never really compare you to what you will face once in battle – the horror of it – and soldiers often freezes up. I think the Host of the Valar would have been complete idiots not to draw on the experience of the Elves of Middle-earth, who had fought the enemy for centuries and have invaluable knowledge of the enemy’s strengths and weaknesses concerning equipment, fighting style(s), tactics etc. And the Host would have been complete idiots not to make use of some experienced, battle-hardened warriors.

- why would the Men of Beleriand fight in the war and not the Elves?


So to return to the original question, then my answer would be: yes, Elrond did somehow partake in the War of the Wrath; not only because he had the time and opportunity, but also because we know Elrond commanded the army Gil-galad sent to aid Eregion, but would he send someone who had never fought in a battle? If Elrond had not proved himself a capable warrior and commander in battle, Gil-galad, knowing the danger of placing someone in charge with no experience, could have found a better suited commander to lead the army. And the only battle Elrond could have had the chance to gain experience and prove himself was in the War of Wrath.

[Valandil]

Hi Elf of Cave - and welcome to Entmoot!

Are you sure though, that the men of Beleriand fought with the Army of Valinor? I didn't think they did. I thought the gift of Numenor was for previously standing by the Elves of Beleriand and fighting with them against the forces of Morgoth.

As I read the pertinent passages, the image I get is that this grand army arrives in what is basically the shambles of a refuge camp, tells the folks living there to 'stand aside' and let them handle it - then marches north to do their job. The message to the Elves (and Men - I thought) of Beleriand was probably - "You've done all you can, now leave it to us."

What passages indicate to you that Men fought with the Host of the Valar?

[Elf of cave]

Thank you - glad to be here

I don't have my books with me at the moment but I'm pretty sure it says in the Silmarillion, that the Three Houses of Men fought alongside the Valar while Men out of the east fought with Morgoth (and were for the most part destroyed).

CÃ*rdan (and Gil-galad) had lived on Balar since FA 473 I very much doubt they spend so many years living in a refuge camp, sitting idly by the fire and picking their noses saying "well, too bad, let's just sit here and die". Until the Host of the Valar arrived, they would have had no other choice than to rebuild their military strength as much as possible to defend themselves.

As I read the pertinent passages, the image I get is that this grand army arrives in what is basically the shambles of a refuge camp, tells the folks living there to 'stand aside' and let them handle it - then marches north to do their job. The message to the Elves (and Men - I thought) of Beleriand was probably - "You've done all you can, now leave it to us."

Yeah, Tolkien make it sound like a walk in the park, but the war lasted for more that 40 years - it was not a walk in the park. The only reason the Host of the Valar was not destroyed upon arrival was most likely due to their great number and the presence of Valar and Maiar.

[Varnafindë]

Do we know exactly how long Elrond and Elros lived with Maglor?

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Men fought on both sides of this war, as they ever have and seemingly ever shall.

The Balrogs were destroyed, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth; and the uncounted legions of the Orcs perished like straw in a great fire, or were swept like shrivelled leaves before a burning wind. Few remained to trouble the world for long years after. And such few as were left of the three houses of the Elf-friends, Fathers of Men, fought upon the part of the Valar; and they were avenged in those days for Baragund and Barahir, Galdor and Gundor, Huor and Húrin, and many others of their lords. But a great part of the sons of Men, whether of the people of Uldor or others new-come out of the east, marched with the Enemy; and the Elves do not forget it.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Elf of cave

But as you point out the War of Wrath lasted 43 years. We know Elves reach their maturity at the age of 50, so if Elros and Elrond grew as normal Elves they would have reached maturity in FA 582 which gives them 5 years to fight in the War, but being Peredhil they might have reached maturity even earlier – if they matured as Men does they could have fought almost the entire war. Besides, we know Huor joined his first war party at the age of 13 (or 14), so having Elros and Elrond join a war at the age of 13 may not be as unlikely as one might think.

Possible though it may be, I do not think it is likely any Elf would let Elrond or his brother enter battle before they reached the Elf-reckoned age of maturity. They were half-human, but raised among Elves, to Elven standards. If they stayed under Maedhros' and Maglor's care until the end of the War, I'm pretty sure neither would even have been allowed to partake in fighting.

Neither do I believe the battle-hardened Men who had fought long and hard in the War of Wrath would simply accept an upstart Half-elf – no matter his linage – who had never seen battle, just because the Valar told them to. Elros would have had to prove himself worthy.

Hm, I would say Elros' line of descent would carry greater weight than his actual battle experience. He is after all the grandson of Tuor, son of Huor, from a family of rulers that was really quite respected. [EDIT: AND descended through Elwing from Beren. Elros was (barring Elrond) about the only rightful heir left to two Houses of the Edain.] His worth in battle does not necessarily have to enter into things, especially not since it would have been peace-time when Men embarked for Numenor. War was not thought of at that time, thus they would not have needed a war-leader.

yes it all sounds so grand with the coming of the mighty Host of the Valar, but was it really? I mean probably around 90% of the Elven Host would have been born in the Bliss of Valinor, and would have never seen an orc nor wielded a weapon in battle. We know that no matter how much you train it can never really compare you to what you will face once in battle – the horror of it – and soldiers often freezes up.

This does not seem to have been the case for the Valinorean Elves. When Fëanor and the Noldor first arrived on the Eastern shores, they had never laid eyes on an orc either. They had swords and armour, yes, but very little battle experience, yet they gave Morgoth's army a run for their money. Valinorean Elves, it seems, scoff at the necessity of fighting experience.

I think the Host of the Valar would have been complete idiots not to draw on the experience of the Elves of Middle-earth, who had fought the enemy for centuries and have invaluable knowledge of the enemy’s strengths and weaknesses concerning equipment, fighting style(s), tactics etc.

Not to mention knowledge of the lay of the land, which I would rank as the primary reason to include Middle-earth warriors into the Valinorean armies. You can't march on Thangorodrim if you don't know where the blazes it is situated!

Originally Posted by Valandil

Are you sure though, that the men of Beleriand fought with the Army of Valinor? I didn't think they did. I thought the gift of Numenor was for previously standing by the Elves of Beleriand and fighting with them against the forces of Morgoth.

It would surprise me greatly if the Men of Beleriand just stood by and watched. I don't have my books handy, but I'm pretty sure they did their part.

As I read the pertinent passages, the image I get is that this grand army arrives in what is basically the shambles of a refuge camp, tells the folks living there to 'stand aside' and let them handle it - then marches north to do their job. The message to the Elves (and Men - I thought) of Beleriand was probably - "You've done all you can, now leave it to us."

The Island of Balar was already inhabited before Cirdan was forced to retreat to it. It may have been somewhat more crowded at the end, but I wouldn't call it a refuge camp in the sense of today's camps. There should still have been small pockets of resistance dotting Beleriand too, those Men and Elves would have to live somewhere too. It may have been only temporary homes, and I bet their armour had a few untreated dinks and dents when compared to the shiny Valinorean outfits, but I doubt they would have been told to stand aside.

The Valar knew Morgoth pretty well, and they no doubt had realised that the first time they fought Morgoth, they hadn't succeeded in rooting out the hidden depths of his fortress. This time he probably even have more forces ready. (He did, the dragons.) So I'm pretty sure the Valinorean forces took what warriors they could get to get the job done properly this time.

[Elf of cave]

Possible though it may be, I do not think it is likely any Elf would let Elrond or his brother enter battle before they reached the Elf-reckoned age of maturity. They were half-human, but raised among Elves, to Elven standards. If they stayed under Maedhros' and Maglor's care until the end of the War, I'm pretty sure neither would even have been allowed to partake in fighting.

But we don't know how long Elrond and Elros stayed with Maglor. Upon reaching their maturity they might as well have left the Fëanorians and joined one of the still free groups of Edain. And if they stayed with Maglor until the end of the war you have to keep in mind that the Fëanorians lived in the wilderness (surrounded by the enemy) – a situation in which it would have been almost impossible to shield off Elros and Elros from partaking in fights with the enemy; not only would it have been almost impossible it would have been extremely dangerous.

Hm, I would say Elros' line of descent would carry greater weight than his actual battle experience. He is after all the grandson of Tuor, son of Huor, from a family of rulers that was really quite respected. [EDIT: AND descended through Elwing from Beren. Elros was (barring Elrond) about the only rightful heir left to two Houses of the Edain.] His worth in battle does not necessarily have to enter into things, especially not since it would have been peace-time when Men embarked for Numenor. War was not thought of at that time, thus they would not have needed a war-leader.

In a society that reflects the one we know from Medieval times (and Antiquity), it doesn't matter if it is a time of peace. The leaders are first and foremost military leaders. Try to imagine a people who have spent most of their lives at war, and during that time a few men have set themselves aside as great warriors and outstanding leaders which have earned them a respect from their fellow warriors that cannot be achieved elsewhere. Now Imagine the war comes to an end and the people are told they will be given a new kingdom – who do you think will have the peoples support: a young Half-Elf, of great linage, but who had never fought in a battle and who they don’t know? Or a Man of lesser linage but who the people know and respect as a great warrior and leader? If we look at our own history the answer is clear. If a general gained the support of the people he became more powerful than the King – a dangerous situation which often led to internal conflict and civil war (especially in the Roman Empire). A King must have the full support of his army (and Númenor would have maintained an army. Morgoth may have been defeated but there were still many wild Men, and Men of the East, which had lived under Morgoth's shadow (not to forget those that had escaped from the host of the Valar like Sauron, Balrogs, Orcs etc.), and the only way to gain that is to prove himself a capable warrior and commander.

This does not seem to have been the case for the Valinorean Elves. When Fëanor and the Noldor first arrived on the Eastern shores, they had never laid eyes on an orc either. They had swords and armour, yes, but very little battle experience, yet they gave Morgoth's army a run for their money. Valinorean Elves, it seems, scoff at the necessity of fighting experience.

Yes, but remember that until then Morgoth’s forces had only fought against the Dwarves, the Sindar and Nandor of Beleriand. The Nandor were lightly armed. The Dwarves were well-armed, and made weapons and armour for the Sindar. When the Fëanorians arrives they come equipped with the newest technology in armour and weapons – and a hatred of Morgoth greater than anything else. As we know from our own history two war faring nations always develop their war-technology always develops in accordance with each other, so Morgoth’s forces would have had weapons and armour suited for battle against the Dwarves, the Sindar and Nandor, but these would have been almost useless against the new technology the Noldor brought with them, not to forget the use of cavalry (which seems to have come with the Fëanorians). And in that battle Morgoth was careless; desiring only to drive the Noldor out as quickly as possible and completely underestimated them.

When the Host of the Valar arrived their armour and weapon design would most likely not have changed much from what the Noldor first brought (while the technology of both the Noldor and Morgoths forces would have continued to evolve through the First Age), so the Host of the West may not have had the advantage of technology the exiled Noldor had upon arrival. And Morgoth would most likely have been more careful battling this new enemy, not wanting to make the same mistake twice – and this time his forces did not have the advantage of sheer size.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I wonder whether the twins' decision to live man-wise or elf-wise was already made by this time. If Elros had already decided to live as a Man, then it is likely that he was already a leader of his people when the War of Wrath commenced, even if he was still advised (or even temporarily outranked) by some of his elders. By the end of that war, he could have greatly distinguished himself among Men.

Nevertheless, it was his lineage that gave him the initial leg-up. He was the heir.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Elf of cave

But we don't know how long Elrond and Elros stayed with Maglor. Upon reaching their maturity they might as well have left the Fëanorians and joined one of the still free groups of Edain.

In the event of the twins staying with the Fëanoreans, I don't think they would be allowed or were even capable of joining the Edain. Maedhros and Maglor seemed to have adopted the twins in some way, so I can't really imagine them letting the two boys join the fighting, regardless whether it would be along Elves or Men. While the Fëanoreans welcomed and employed Men in their troups in earlier days, I don't think they easily had contact with them when they were on the run themselves. Travel and/or communication between isolated groups would have been scarce, IMO, especially if all had to move stealthy and repeatedly. It may be well possible that neither race trusted each other a lot at the time.

And if they stayed with Maglor until the end of the war you have to keep in mind that the Fëanorians lived in the wilderness (surrounded by the enemy) – a situation in which it would have been almost impossible to shield off Elros and Elros from partaking in fights with the enemy; not only would it have been almost impossible it would have been extremely dangerous.

No doubt the Fëanoreans also had women and few children with them. The non-fighting population didn't just disappear when the Elven realms were broken up. Even if the Fëanoreans were forced to move from place to place, there would always have been a part of that group that would have been held safe and away from fighting, as much as possible.

Suppose Elrond and Elros were mature enough to have been instructed in fighting, then (purely speculating here) Maedhros and Maglor may still have kept them away from any battle by making them responsible for escorting and guiding the non-combattants to safety while the rest of the warriors engaged the enemy. This way the twins may not have partaken in a single battle.

In a society that reflects the one we know from Medieval times (and Antiquity), it doesn't matter if it is a time of peace. The leaders are first and foremost military leaders. Try to imagine a people who have spent most of their lives at war, and during that time a few men have set themselves aside as great warriors and outstanding leaders which have earned them a respect from their fellow warriors that cannot be achieved elsewhere. Now Imagine the war comes to an end and the people are told they will be given a new kingdom – who do you think will have the peoples support: a young Half-Elf, of great linage, but who had never fought in a battle and who they don’t know? Or a Man of lesser linage but who the people know and respect as a great warrior and leader? If we look at our own history the answer is clear. If a general gained the support of the people he became more powerful than the King – a dangerous situation which often led to internal conflict and civil war (especially in the Roman Empire). A King must have the full support of his army (and Númenor would have maintained an army. Morgoth may have been defeated but there were still many wild Men, and Men of the East, which had lived under Morgoth's shadow (not to forget those that had escaped from the host of the Valar like Sauron, Balrogs, Orcs etc.), and the only way to gain that is to prove himself a capable warrior and commander.

History aside, these are a lot of assumptions about the Edain of which -for this particalur time frame- we have but very little information how they thought and of what kind their leaders were. Also, in actual history we do not have divine beings offering up beautiful continents as rewards. No one could have attacked the Edain on their island, even if they wanted to. The big bad was vanquished, and what was left of his forces didn't seem to possess much knowledge of sea-warfare. The sea was then after all, the uncontested domain of Ulmo. Morgoth's forces did not venture there, which may have been an argument in giving the Edain Numenor. The Edain were as safe on their island as they could ever be. It took them several generations too, if I'm not mistaken, before they were capable of seeking out other shores. So the fact that is was peace-time does have a sufficient influence here in my opinion.

I maintain Elros' lineage was of greater weight, because Tolkien himself always seemed to put lineage forward in matters of succession. Those of the right lineage were not always chosen. In the case of Arvedui, Gondor (still in war-time) did indeed opt for a battle-proven warrior of their own. But according to Malbeth's prophesy, Arvedui would eventually have been the better choice.

[Elf of cave]

In the event of the twins staying with the Fëanoreans, I don't think they would be allowed or were even capable of joining the Edain. Maedhros and Maglor seemed to have adopted the twins in some way, so I can't really imagine them letting the two boys join the fighting, regardless whether it would be along Elves or Men. While the Fëanoreans welcomed and employed Men in their troups in earlier days, I don't think they easily had contact with them when they were on the run themselves. Travel and/or communication between isolated groups would have been scarce, IMO, especially if all had to move stealthy and repeatedly. It may be well possible that neither race trusted each other a lot at the time.

No doubt the Fëanoreans also had women and few children with them. The non-fighting population didn't just disappear when the Elven realms were broken up. Even if the Fëanoreans were forced to move from place to place, there would always have been a part of that group that would have been held safe and away from fighting, as much as possible.

Suppose Elrond and Elros were mature enough to have been instructed in fighting, then (purely speculating here) Maedhros and Maglor may still have kept them away from any battle by making them responsible for escorting and guiding the non-combattants to safety while the rest of the warriors engaged the enemy. This way the twins may not have partaken in a single battle.

So you believe in a time in which the enemy’ complete victory seems eminent that Maglor and Maedhros would have shielded Elros and Elrond from any sort of fighting – not even giving them the means to defend themselves if need should arise? I’m sorry but I find that line of argument completely very out of line with the situation in the end of the First Age. Those were desperate times, enemy forces were roaming freely everywhere in Beleriand, there was no certainty, maintaining a number of non-combatants in a group would be a death sentence to those people should they stumble upon enemy forces or run into an ambush, and it would place a greater strain on the warriors that could be fatal.

I have always viewed Maedhros as a very practical person, and in a desperate situation as the one they faced after the Third Kinslaying (having lost more warriors in the sack, facing rebellion in his own ranks) he would have had everyone under his charge equipped and instructed in the use of weaponry. A good leader should always prepare for the worst case scenario, and when you are constantly under threat from the enemy you cannot afford to shield someone from reality simply because it goes against your/your culture’s moral principles. In desperate times there is no room for decency, and people who cannot properly defend themselves are a liability one can ill afford.

Elros and Elrond responsible for escorting and guiding the non-combatants to safety? It would have been the most dangerous position Maglor and Maedhros could place them in, because should something unforeseen happen (like an ambush) they would be doomed. It is a lot safer to be surrounded by fellow warriors than by “civilians�.

And why do you think there would be children? We know Elves only begot children in times of peace, or as is the case in the First Age, when you felt safe (like in Gondolin, for instance). I don’t think many Elven children were begot after the NÃ*rnaeth Arnoediad – unless it be in the remaining Elven strongholds, Nargothrond, Doriath and Gondolin – and later on Balar. It would be too perilous to beget and raise children, especially Elven children who took so long to reach maturity, when the future seemed so bleak and hopeless as it must have.

History aside, these are a lot of assumptions about the Edain of which -for this particalur time frame- we have but very little information how they thought and of what kind their leaders were. Also, in actual history we do not have divine beings offering up beautiful continents as rewards. No one could have attacked the Edain on their island, even if they wanted to. The big bad was vanquished, and what was left of his forces didn't seem to possess much knowledge of sea-warfare. The sea was then after all, the uncontested domain of Ulmo. Morgoth's forces did not venture there, which may have been an argument in giving the Edain Numenor. The Edain were as safe on their island as they could ever be. It took them several generations too, if I'm not mistaken, before they were capable of seeking out other shores. So the fact that is was peace-time does have a sufficient influence here in my opinion.

I maintain Elros' lineage was of greater weight, because Tolkien himself always seemed to put lineage forward in matters of succession. Those of the right lineage were not always chosen. In the case of Arvedui, Gondor (still in war-time) did indeed opt for a battle-proven warrior of their own. But according to Malbeth's prophesy, Arvedui would eventually have been the better choice.

But is it assumptions based on knowledge about basic human nature, which is that humans will always choose strong leaders who we know and respect, and more importantly who we believe can defend us should danger arise. Besides, Tolkien always imagined his legendarium to be a forgotten part of our own history – so drawing analogies between our own history and Tolkien’s world seems quite legitimate.

What we know about Men in the First Age is that they have been under threat from the enemy since the beginning of their very existence, and the remaining Men in the end of that age would only ever have known fear, peril and uncertainty, and never peace and a sense of security – do you believe they could simply let their guard down and blindly dare to believe that now evil had ended? I think they would have found that immensely hard and I don’t think they would actually have dared to believe it – and even if they did then once burned, twice shy: they would make sure they would never again end up in a situation in which they would be at the mercy of other races for protection. The Whole idea of Númenor is that finally Men would have their own land, their own king, their own culture etc. All in all: complete independence in all matters – especially concerning the military.

Yes linage is important in Tolkien’s world but it was equally important throughout our own history and yet linage was not everything. Túrin is a great example of this: when he came to Nargothrond he quickly became popular because he was a great warrior, and in the end the Elves listened more to Túrin than they did their own King, and later in Brethil, Túrin once again quickly became more popular than their leader Brandir who tried to protect his people by avoiding open war.

As you point out those were times of war and after the War of Wrath Men were facing a time of peace, but my point is it does not matter, because in the end it is all about who has the people’s, and more important the army’s, loyalty.

Imagine this very likely scenario:

A Man fights in the War of Wrath, and during that time he proves himself a fierce warrior and great leader so at the end of the war he has become the chosen commander of the Edain forces. Now A divine being comes to the Men and tells them that the War is over and evil is vanquished, and as a gift for their services they are granted this new island to be their own, and the divine beings has chosen a young Half-Elf of great linage to be their king. Can you imagine how the men would feel – how the commander would feel? He has the loyalty of the soldiers (and likely also the soldiers families) – he is the leader of the Men but now he suddenly has to serve and upstart Half-Elf whom has spent his entire life living (in your opinion) sheltered among Elves, knows next to nothing of the Edain lore and traditions, and who the Edain knows absolutely nothing about. Do you think they would accept that – that the peoples chosen leader would accept that? I don’t (and it would seem on the verge of blackmail on the Valar’s part to give Men this new land but only if they accept the leader they have chosen for them). Elros could not have succeeded as King if he had not first gained the loyalty of the Edain, and especially that of the soldiers because we all know what has happened to leaders who has/had lost the support and loyalty of the army – they are/were not leaders for long.

The reason for this is, as I have mentioned, because it is human nature to choose the tried and the true, the known over the unknown, the certain over the uncertain. We prefer the existing patterns, the established relationships, the environment which we know — even if there are obvious and repeated deficiencies, and even if the world is rapidly changing all around us. We find it hard to change, and we are afraid of new ways of thinking and doing.

This would have been the case of the Edain at the end of the First Age as well.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I've always had the impression that the twins were not held captive by Maedhros and Maglor very long. Is there any evidence that they hadn't returned to their own people before the War of Wrath?

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Elf of cave

So you believe in a time in which the enemy’ complete victory seems eminent that Maglor and Maedhros would have shielded Elros and Elrond from any sort of fighting – not even giving them the means to defend themselves if need should arise?

Nope. Trying your best to keep two young brothers from direct combat as much as possible does not equal having them stay defenceless. It had been my impression that if the two brothers stayed with Maglor and Maedhros all through the war, the two Fëanoreans would have taken steps to keep them safe. And trying to keep them safe does not equal never teaching them how to handle weapons either. But IMO it seems silly to rescue two children from a ruined city you yourself have grazed to the ground, and then let these same kids risk getting killed in skirmishes!

Those were desperate times, enemy forces were roaming freely everywhere in Beleriand, there was no certainty, maintaining a number of non-combatants in a group would be a death sentence to those people should they stumble upon enemy forces or run into an ambush, and it would place a greater strain on the warriors that could be fatal.

One doesn't always have the best choice in companions in war-time. But are you saying that according to you everyone who couldn't cross swords with orcs, was simply left behind to fend for themselves? Not allowed to travel with the mighty warriors because their very non-combattant presence is deemed distracting?

Elros and Elrond responsible for escorting and guiding the non-combatants to safety? It would have been the most dangerous position Maglor and Maedhros could place them in, because should something unforeseen happen (like an ambush) they would be doomed. It is a lot safer to be surrounded by fellow warriors than by “civilians”.

*shrugs* Depends on the situation. And I'm not saying Elrond and Elros got landed with escort duties all the time. I only put it forward as one possible strategy the Fëanoreans may have used, i.o.w. not the only one.

And why do you think there would be children? We know Elves only begot children in times of peace, or as is the case in the First Age, when you felt safe (like in Gondolin, for instance). I don’t think many Elven children were begot after the NÃ*rnaeth Arnoediad – unless it be in the remaining Elven strongholds, Nargothrond, Doriath and Gondolin – and later on Balar. It would be too perilous to beget and raise children, especially Elven children who took so long to reach maturity, when the future seemed so bleak and hopeless as it must have.

Which is why I specifically said: 'few'. Don't forget that Elrond and Elros were children themselves for a significant part of the War. Elwing and Eärendil must have considered the settlement at the Mouths of the Sirion safe enough or they wouldn't have started a family. But they did. No doubt there would have been some people of like mind, and that would mean at least a few children up to a certain age during the War. Not many, since I do know that Elves refrain from reproducing in uncertain times, but none what so ever would be IMO somewhat extreme.

But is it assumptions based on knowledge about basic human nature, which is that humans will always choose strong leaders who we know and respect, and more importantly who we believe can defend us should danger arise. Besides, Tolkien always imagined his legendarium to be a forgotten part of our own history – so drawing analogies between our own history and Tolkien’s world seems quite legitimate.

All I'm saying is that there are factors (the Valar, the raising of Númenor, Morgoth's followers' lack of marine war-fare, etc) that make a straight-forward analogy with our history somewhat more complicated.

Now A divine being comes to the Men and tells them that the War is over and evil is vanquished, and as a gift for their services they are granted this new island to be their own, and the divine beings has chosen a young Half-Elf of great linage to be their king. Can you imagine how the men would feel – how the commander would feel? [...] Do you think they would accept that – that the peoples chosen leader would accept that?

I'll say one thing, though, -hm, this is actually analogous with our own history too: when devine beings get mixed in matters, you can trust humans to act unexpectedly and illogically.

There's another factor in this: there is no garantee that the seperate groups of Edain were all led by the best warrior of that group that also happened to be chosen for that purpose by the others. Some no doubt were only leader because they could yell the hardest, were the oldest, had had the richest farm, or were really not a good leader at all but everybody else was still worse, etc.... And many were probably not chosen democratically either.

Therefore it must be possible, and decidedly human, that the Edain relied on reasons to follow a leader, other than solely their personal, first-hand knowledge of his actions in battle.

We prefer the existing patterns, the established relationships, the environment which we know — even if there are obvious and repeated deficiencies, and even if the world is rapidly changing all around us.

I realise what you want to say, but this argument sounds rather like it could be used also to justify choosing a leader based on lineage, because his lineage has been established and known and his ancestors were considered pretty good leaders in their turn.

[Galin]

Incidentally, the following are some variant texts that seem to hinge on the matter of Elves 'growing up' so to speak (including the L&C text). With respect to B below, 3,000 years might refer to a rate of growth in Elves as it was from very early on, and which might have shortened later -- noting that this text stands in close relationship to the manuscript of Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth and Finrod's remark in that text: 'Already those of us who dwell in Middle-earth, and even we who have returned to it, find that the change of their bodies is swifter than in the beginning.' Also, in the manuscript the word 'change' reads 'growth' rather.

In any case the examples below do not necessarily need to be consistent with each other.

____________________

A) Elfwine's Preamble, Of the laws and customs among the eldar pertaining to marriage and other matters related thereto: together with the statute of Finwe and Miriel and the debate of the Valar at its making.

The Eldar grew in bodily form slower than Men, but in mind more swiftly. They learned to speak before they were one year old; and in the same time they learned to walk and to dance, for their wills came soon to the mastery of their bodies. Nonetheless there was less difference between the two Kindreds, Elves and Men, in early youth; and a man who watched elf-children at play might well have believed that they were the children of Men, of some fair and happy people. (...)

Children of Men might reach their full height while Eldar of the same age were still in body like to mortals of no more than seven years. Not until the fiftieth year did the Eldar attain the stature and shape in which their lives would afterwards endure, and for some a hundred years would pass before they were full-grown. Morgoth's Ring

B) Morgoth's Ring again: 'On earth while an Elf-child did but grow to be a man or a woman, in some 3000 years, forests would rise and fall, and all the face of the land would change...' Aman, Myths Transformed

C) 'They' are the Númenóreans: 'Thus (as the Eldar) they grew at much the same rate as other Men, but when they had achieved 'full growth' then they aged, or 'wore out', very much more slowly.' Note 1, The Line of Elros, Unfinished Tales


D) Author's notes to NKE ('neter, kanat, enek'): Note 1: 'C.E. ? netthi. C.E. tth > Q., T. tt; S. þþ > þ. nette meant 'girl approaching the adult' (in her 'teens': the growth of Elvish children after birth was little if at all slower than that of the children of Men). The Common Eldarin stem (wen-ed) wendé 'maiden' applied to all stages up to the fully adult (until marriage).' JRRT, from Vinyar Tengwar 47, texts generally dated 1967-70

This last one is dated fairly late actually.

[Elf of cave]

Eärniel I believe we are reaching a stalemate, but I will give it another go

Originally Posted by Eärniel

But IMO it seems silly to rescue two children from a ruined city you yourself have grazed to the ground, and then let these same kids risk getting killed in skirmishes!

We don’t really know the reason why the Fëanorians took Elros and Elrond with them, they might as well have taken them as hostages in a last desperate attempt to regain the Silmaril. But yes, I agree that they would have kept the children safe at least until they reached maturity – or according to another story the Fëanorians left Elros and Elrond in a cave behind a waterfall where they were later found safe and sound.

One doesn't always have the best choice in companions in war-time. But are you saying that according to you everyone who couldn't cross swords with orcs, was simply left behind to fend for themselves? Not allowed to travel with the mighty warriors because their very non-combattant presence is deemed distracting?

No, as I said, Maedhros would have made sure everyone in his company had the means and skills to defend themselves should need arise.

Which is why I specifically said: 'few'. Don't forget that Elrond and Elros were children themselves for a significant part of the War.

Yes but you were talking about children in the Fëanorian host (or whatever was left of it), which is what I replied to.

Eärendil and Elwing married when they were 22 years old, so it seems safe to assume that Half-Elves reached maturity around the age of 20, 30 at most, so Elros and Elrond were adults throughout most of the War, and upon reaching their maturity if they had decided to go to war they would have. The only way Maglor and Maedhros (or Gil-galad) could have stopped them was by holding them prisoners, which seems unlikely. If Elros and Elrond desired to go to war, it would have been their right, not only because they had reached their maturity, but because their linage supported choosing a military profession – to prove in battle that they were worthy
descendants of their mighty ancestry.

There's another factor in this: there is no garantee that the seperate groups of Edain were all led by the best warrior of that group that also happened to be chosen for that purpose by the others. Some no doubt were only leader because they could yell the hardest, were the oldest, had had the richest farm, or were really not a good leader at all but everybody else was still worse, etc.... And many were probably not chosen democratically either.

Therefore it must be possible, and decidedly human, that the Edain relied on reasons to follow a leader, other than solely their personal, first-hand knowledge of his actions in battle.

I realise what you want to say, but this argument sounds rather like it could be used also to justify choosing a leader based on lineage, because his lineage has been established and known and his ancestors were considered pretty good leaders in their turn.

No the groups may not have been lead by the best warriors, but during the war it would seem logical that those of the Edain that joined the Host (most likely all able Men) would have fought together, and even should that not be the case then the warriors would still have been led by commanders. And maybe in the beginning these leaders were the ones of the greatest linage, the ones that could yell the loudest, were the oldest etc. but at that time, unlike today, the leaders took part in the actual fighting and if they proved themselves to be poor warriors and incompetent leaders in battle, they would be killed or quickly replaced. Soldiers follow the strongest among themselves, because the stronger the leader the greater are the chances that they will survive. A 40-year long war really sorts out the sheep from the goats and ensures that the strongest, most competent men become leaders. Those leaders, or that leader, will at the end of the war have the loyalty of the men he has led and will enjoy immense popularity – more than enough to lay claim to the throne.

Yes linage meant a lot in forms of government in which supreme power is embodied in an individual, who is the head of state, like monarchies (not the modern ones) and empires. But realistically, the main support of a supreme ruler's power and authority was the army. A new ruler had to seek a swift acknowledgement of his new status and authority in order to stabilize the political landscape. No ruler could hope to reign without the allegiance and loyalty of the army.

Yes Elros might have been fortunate to somehow gain the support of the commander(s), but we know that once men have tasted power they are not likely to relinquish it easily – especially not to a complete stranger – and Elros could quickly have found himself without any powerful supporters, which is a dangerous situation for any supreme ruler, peacetime or not.

I believe when the Valar made Elros to be the first King of the Edain, he was chosen not only because his linage made him the perfect candidate but because he – even more importantly – already had achieved a great amount of loyalty and support from the Edain by having proved himself a capable leader during the war.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Elf of cave

Eärniel I believe we are reaching a stalemate, but I will give it another go

Yes, I do believe we better agree to disagree. But our discussion did bring up a few new things for me to consider on this topic, so it was not wasted!

But yes, I agree that they would have kept the children safe at least until they reached maturity – or according to another story the Fëanorians left Elros and Elrond in a cave behind a waterfall where they were later found safe and sound.

I don't immediately remember the cave story, does it come from the HoME-books? In any case the situation could be drastically different indeed if Elrond and Elros ended up with their own people instead of the Fëanoreans. It remains to be seen, however, if the remaining Sindarin had any more contact with the Edain groups than would the Fëanoreans.

Eärendil and Elwing married when they were 22 years old, so it seems safe to assume that Half-Elves reached maturity around the age of 20, 30 at most, so Elros and Elrond were adults throughout most of the War, and upon reaching their maturity if they had decided to go to war they would have. The only way Maglor and Maedhros (or Gil-galad) could have stopped them was by holding them prisoners, which seems unlikely. If Elros and Elrond desired to go to war, it would have been their right, not only because they had reached their maturity, but because their linage supported choosing a military profession – to prove in battle that they were worthy
descendants of their mighty ancestry.

It's a good point, although I never really got the impression that Elrond and Elros were all that eager to go out and fight. We know even less about Elros but Elrond never struck me as the battle-hungry warrior. Of course it is difficult to determine whether he would always have been like that, or whether he lost all interest in battle with say, the settling of Rivendell.

[Elf of cave]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I don't immediately remember the cave story, does it come from the HoME-books?

No it comes from The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter #211.

It's a good point, although I never really got the impression that Elrond and Elros were all that eager to go out and fight. We know even less about Elros but Elrond never struck me as the battle-hungry warrior. Of course it is difficult to determine whether he would always have been like that, or whether he lost all interest in battle with say, the settling of Rivendell

I agree, but that is the "old" Elrond, who had seen "many things both glad and sorrowful." (FotR). I think young Elrond and Elros would have been eager to go to war to prove themselves and gain valour - like other thick-headed and spirited young men who believe themselves to be invincible And it could have been an opportunity for them to prove themselves worthy of their heritage as descendants of some of the greatest warriors of the First Age.

And as I noted in an earlier post, Elrond commanded the army Gil-galad sent to aid Eregion, and I doubt he would send someone who had never fought in a battle. If Elrond had not proved himself a capable warrior and commander in battle, Gil-galad, knowing the danger of placing someone in charge with no combat-experience, could have found a better suited commander to lead the army (there must have been some veterans from the First Age who followed Gil-galad to Lindon). And the only battle Elrond could have had the chance to gain experience and prove himself was in the War of Wrath.