In what order were the people of the House of Finwë born?

[Peter_20]

I've always wondered in what order the people of the House of Finwë were born.
I know for sure than Fëanor was Finwë's first child, but what about everyone else?
Was MÃ*riel older than Indis?
Was Fingon born before Maedhros?

I've heard than Turgon and Finrod were born the same year, so naturally Finrod should be older than Aredhel, etc.
Do you have any more details on this?

I've also heard about rather anonymous characters like Findis and Argon.

[The Telcontarion]

Well the sil did tell us that Feanor married young and had all his children when he was still very young. Not only I had always thought that Maedhros was older than Fingon, but older than Fingolfin as well. Feanor was married before fingolfin was born.

[Peter_20]

I'm kinda dubious on whether Maedhros is older or not, because in one chapter Tolkien mentions the different kings and rulers in Middle-earth in a certain order:
he claims Fingolfin to be the oldest and Finrod to be the youngest, and then he lists the characters in this order: Fingolfin - Fingon - Maedhros - Finrod.

I take it that means Fingon is older than Maedhros.
Maedhros also states himself than Fingolfin is older than him - "the kingship should rightly come to you (Fingolfin), the oldest here of the sons of Finwë", etc.

Right now I believe in this order, based on the family tree in The Silmarillion:

Fëanor
Fingolfin
Finarfin
Fingon
Maedhros
Maglor
Turgon / Finrod
Celegorm
Caranthir
Curufin
Amrod / Amras
Orodreth
Angrod
Aegnor
Aredhel / Galadriel

I don't really know why, but it feels right.

[Keith K]

I think it very possible, even likely, that all of Feanor's sons predated the birth of Fingolfin.

My take on your example is that Maedhros was speaking of the three sons of Finwe only. (Feanor, Fingolfin, and Finarfin).

[Peter_20]

Originally Posted by Keith K

I think it very possible, even likely, that all of Feanor's sons predated the birth of Fingolfin.

My take on your example is that Maedhros was speaking of the three sons of Finwe only. (Feanor, Fingolfin, and Finarfin).

I don't think so, because in the chapter "Of Beleriand And Its Realms" the ruling kings of Beleriand are listed like this:

"Finrod was the youngest of the ruling kings: Fingolfin, Fingon, Maedhros and Finrod Felagund."

Dunno if this order has any real importance, but it seems to me that Fingolfin is stated as the oldest, and then it descends all the way to Finrod.

[Willow Oran]

I wouldn't place so much importance on the order in which they are listed there. That sentence could be easily reworded as:

The ruling kings were Fingolfin, Fingon, Maedhros, and Finrod, who was the youngest.

Finrod being the youngest doesn't tell us how old the others are in relation to anyone except him. It is likely that Fingolfin and Fingon are listed together before Maedhros because they were father and son and because they were the two who held the high kingship.

One should also take into account that the quenya name for Maedhros is Nelyafinwe, meaning 'Third-Finwe' which places him definitely before Fingon, and possibly, but not certainly before Fingolfin.

[Peter_20]

Originally Posted by Willow Oran

One should also take into account that the quenya name for Maedhros is Nelyafinwe, meaning 'Third-Finwe' which places him definitely before Fingon, and possibly, but not certainly before Fingolfin.

Which "Finwës" count, then?
Do you include Finwë himself into the calculation?
If he counts, then Fëanor would be the second Finwë, followed by Maedhros, the third Finwë - this would naturally make Maedhros older than Fingolfin.
If Finwë doesn't count, though, then that would mean Fëanor is the first Finwë, and in that case Fingolfin must be born before Maedhros in order to make Maedhros the third Finwë.

[Willow Oran]

That is what I was trying to say. That Maedhros was definitely older than Fingon but may or may not be older than Fingolfin depending on whether or not you count Finwe as the first. As to that, I am still undecided but leaning towards the belief that Fingolfin was older, though probably not by much.

[Peter_20]

Hm, but it would seem more logical to count Finwë himself as well, wouldn't it?
Which means, Maedhros is older than Fingolfin!

I don't think Amras is older than Fingolfin, though, because Amras' Quenya name is Telufinwë, meaning "Last Finwë".

[The Telcontarion]

I think it was just obvious from reading the Sil that Maedhros was older. I guess it was the time of Finwe's second marriage related to what was stated about Feanor up until that point: being married and having children, if I am not mistaken.

The whole issue about Madhraes being third Finwe sells it to me aswell. It has to be that Finwe is the first - numero uno, Finwe; to me common sense. Therefore Maedhros would have to be older than Fingolfin aswell as Finarfin.

[Peter_20]

Originally Posted by The Telcontarion

I think it was just obvious from reading the Sil that Maedhros was older. I guess it was the time of Finwe's second marriage related to what was stated about Feanor up until that point: being married and having children, if I am not mistaken.

The whole issue about Madhraes being third Finwe sells it to me aswell. It has to be that Finwe is the first - numero uno, Finwe; to me common sense. Therefore Maedhros would have to be older than Fingolfin aswell as Finarfin.

That does make sense, but Amrod and Amras can't be older than Fingolfin, can they?
Amrod and Amras are twin brothers, and Amras' father name is Telufinwë, "Last Finwë", so they should logically be younger than even Finarfin.

[NelyafinweMaitimo]

Tolkien does list the events such that it sounds as if Maedhros is older than Finwe's second and third sons. His father-name 'third-Finwe' could also be a clue, although we must keep in mind that had the two later sons of Finwe already been born, Feanor would still have named his eldest as the third legitimate heir of Finwe's line because...well, because he's Feanor.

[Lefty Scaevola]

"Maedrhos....., saying to Fingolfin: 'If there lay no grievance between us, lord, still the kingship would rightly come to you , the eldest here of the house of Finwe, and not the least wise' ".
SIL: Of the Return of the Noldor: pg 111 in the 1977 edition.
That pretty much establishes Nolofinwe as elder to Nelyafinwe.

[NelyafinweMaitimo]

Well, that certainly cleared things up! I'd read that quote at least twice since I started pondering their birth order and never noticed it.

[Peter_20]

If we're to trust those facts that appeared in The Silmarillion itself and in Tolkien's later changes, then this is what we'd get:

Fëanor
Findis
Fingolfin
�rimë
Finarfin
Turgon / Finrod
Angrod
Aegnor
Aredhel / Galadriel

The birth order of Fëanor and his siblings is obvious, and Turgon and Finrod were born the same year, as were Aredhel and Galadriel, making Angrod and Aegnor older than Aredhel.