Israeli Territory Pull Outs

[Insidious Rex]

What are peoples thoughts on whats going on in Israel right now with the settlements being evacuated and given back to the Palestinians? I think it’s the right thing to do although I can sympathize with those who have been told to leave their homes that they’ve known in some cases for decades. But the cost of protecting a small number of settlers on the outskirts of a land surrounded by literally millions of Palestinians is becoming too high and a gesture of peace like this by a hard liner like Sheron during a time of a (hopefully) more centrist shift in Palestinian politics with the recent election of Abas seems on all sides to be the best choice to make. What do others here feel about it? I particularly post this here because we have some Israeli board members and would like their perspective on this. Ive heard plenty from us loud mouth Americans on it.

[Lief Erikson]

Yes, hearing Radagast on this subject would be interesting.

Myself, I'm concerned still. Most Palestinians feel that Hamas forced Israel out. Hamas is gaining massive political support. Prime Minister Sharon has demanded that the Palestinian Authority dismantle Hamas before major further progress can be made (like connecting the West Bank and Gaza). This is pretty much impossible, for Hamas has so much support. So this barrier will cause problems to the peace process.

Add to that the fact that while Israel is dismantling 2000 housing units in Gaza, it plans to construct 6000 units in the West Bank. The peace gesture may end up looking pretty weak, pretty soon.

Taken by itself though, I think the withdrawal from Gaza is a good thing. I just don't think it'll be enough. When Arafat was dealing with Israel, he was offered Gaza and he wouldn't stop there. He said, "Gaza is a dead end," and pressed on for the West Bank and a road connecting them. I think negotiations broke down at about there.

Israel will need to make more concessions, but as I don't think PM Sharon will be willing to make them unless forced to by massive international pressure (which means the US would have to take action, which I don't think it will), the process could stop there.

I read on BBC that PM Sharon has also spoken of stopping Palestinians being allowed to work in Israel by 2008. That will be disastrous for the Palestinians, if anything comes of it.

[Spock]

I feel this will lead to further attacks on Israel and bring on more deaths.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Taken by itself though, I think the withdrawal from Gaza is a good thing. I just don't think it'll be enough. When Arafat was dealing with Israel, he was offered Gaza and he wouldn't stop there. He said, "Gaza is a dead end," and pressed on for the West Bank and a road connecting them. I think negotiations broke down at about there.

Good point. Although Arafat may have just been using the point as a stall tactic. We'll have to see how the new leadership feels. I think Gaza COULD be significant if the right investment goes into it and if its not sucked up and controlled by corrupt members of the Palestinian authority as has been the case in the past. If the common Palestinian sees no benefit at all from this then it will not be enough to make a change. But if this could effect some change then it could be a factor in promoting good will. And I still think the jesture alone is significant if nothing else. I mean its fairly unprecidented.

I read on BBC that PM Sharon has also spoken of stopping Palestinians being allowed to work in Israel by 2008. That will be disastrous for the Palestinians, if anything comes of it.

That would be stupid. Alienating and keeping the Palestinians in a situation where they cant prosper will only fuel militant anger among them. You want peace give people land and jobs and a reason to keep busy and be content with life.

[Spock]

They want a state; a state should be self supporting with trade agreements, etc. They can't have it both ways.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

Good point. Although Arafat may have just been using the point as a stall tactic. We'll have to see how the new leadership feels. I think Gaza COULD be significant if the right investment goes into it and if its not sucked up and controlled by corrupt members of the Palestinian authority as has been the case in the past. If the common Palestinian sees no benefit at all from this then it will not be enough to make a change.

Oh, the Palestinians certainly are happy about this withdrawal . We can be sure of that. Most of them think Hamas won this withdrawal for them, however, and the Israelis building three times as many houses in the West Bank as they're taking down in Gaza won't help matters .

Here's an interesting article from BBC on what the situation will be after the Gaza withdrawal is complete.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4160026.stm

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

But if this could effect some change then it could be a factor in promoting good will. And I still think the jesture alone is significant if nothing else. I mean its fairly unprecidented.

It depends on how the Palestinians view it. But I agree that it is good.

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

That would be stupid. Alienating and keeping the Palestinians in a situation where they cant prosper will only fuel militant anger among them. You want peace give people land and jobs and a reason to keep busy and be content with life.

Agreed.

I'm afraid I'm still just really skeptical as to how much good this will end up doing. In the short-term, good will probably be done, but in the long run I just can't see this helping. Not unless Israel follows up with other concessions, and I'm sure it won't.

Originally Posted by Spock

They want a state; a state should be self supporting with trade agreements, etc. They can't have it both ways.

What do you mean?

[Earniel]

The evacuation led to some heart-breaking images. One way I think this was an inevitable step in the peace-process in the region, on the other hand I feel for the Israeli people who were forced out of their home. They're victim of bad government policies. Those colonies should never have been built in the first place, in my opinion. They were a constant provocation and I doubt the situation could have been resolved in any other way than pulling-out. I would like to believe the region is now on it's way towards peace but I fear that would be too optimistic. There's still too many other issues, like that wall, that can still blow up the frail chances of stability in the region. Still, I hope this is a step forward nevertheless, even if the road ahead is still very long.

I am rather impressed that Sharon went through with the pull-out. I hadn't expected it after his hard-liner words in the past. Which strengthens me in the conviction that extreme political stances that don't leave place for compromise or discussion never amount to any good.

Originally Posted by Spock

They want a state; a state should be self supporting with trade agreements, etc. They can't have it both ways.

A bit of a black-white statement IMO. How can an area that is constantly closed off at the first sign of violence keep an economy working?

[Spock]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

What do you mean?

I was responding to your post:

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I read on BBC that PM Sharon has also spoken of stopping Palestinians being allowed to work in Israel by 2008. That will be disastrous for the Palestinians, if anything comes of it.

They can't expect Israel to prop them up. If they can stop running around bombing people, shooting people and dancing before the cameras, they can build a state that utilizes resources, makes agreements and employes its citizens. Israel did it out of a desert and now the P. want to take the rewards of 50 yrs. of work. I don't think so.

[Radagast The Brown]

I was in vacation... just got back.

What I thought...? I was personally for it. It doesn't have to do much with the peace process really... no one had peace in mind IMO, not here anyway. It was basically realizing we can't keep about one soldier per settler, in the middle of the strip... millions of palestinians surrounding. It's just illogical and dangerous. So we got out. Doubt it will continue to the West Bank sometime soon, since I doubt Sharon wants it or has any majority. He could barely do this one.

I'm not sure really what I feel about the settlers.. It's hard for me to feel sympathy, because they could leave weeks ago, but they decided to stay have their things packed by strangers, not having a place to live in and not get compensations for the ruined houses.. fine. I can say I even hate some of them...

I don't tihnk much would be changed in the relations with Palestinians.. But that's just me.. I thought it was obvious that in a future peace treatment Gaza would be Palestinian.

And I really don't like the idea of having Palestinians still coming in Israel... But maybe it's just me. I just thought it would end after we leave them to live by theirselves. Like they wanted.

[Spock]

Good to have you back RTB. The P. talk one thing and do another. You'll never be rid of them because then they'd have nothing to do: a) no dancing before the cameras, b) no holding empty RPG in the street, c) no shooting or killing or bombing.....well you get the point. NEVER AGAIN!

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Spock

They can't expect Israel to prop them up. If they can stop running around bombing people, shooting people and dancing before the cameras, they can build a state that utilizes resources, makes agreements and employes its citizens. Israel did it out of a desert and now the P. want to take the rewards of 50 yrs. of work. I don't think so.

First of all, I don't at all care for your use of the word "they". Jerseydevil used to do the same thing. You're lumping all Palestinians together into one boat, ignoring the fact that already some members of the Palestinian Authority have lost their lives fighting against other terrorists, and many others are set up around Gaza settlements as we speak doing their utmost to stop any terrorism. You're forgetting those Palestinians that view the terrorist attacks as acts of hatred and evil, and forgetting the fact that in the start of the intifada, all was done peacefully. Peaceful protests, peaceful boycotts.

You're also forgetting the other side of the story. You're forgetting "Operation Rainbow," which blasted into Palestinian infrastructure in Gaza. The Israeli Army demolished banks, businesses and schools. "Terrorist infrastructure" that cost the United States and other countries millions of dollars. You forget Jenin.

There actually have been Palestinian civilians murdered as well. A Palestinian woman recently weeping over a husband murdered by one of these recent Jewish terrorists cried, "why when a Jew kills do they say, 'he is a madman, he is insane', but when a Palestinian kills they label him 'terrorist'?" The reason that the Jew murdered was that he 'cracked under pressure because of the Gaza withdrawal'. The reason Palestinians murder is little different, though perhaps much better explained. They crack under the desperations caused by hunger and want, by homelessness and oppression. They have viewed Israel as an oppressor, and I think for good reason. It has stolen their land and ignored international law that has demanded that the Palestinians be allowed to return to the homes they left. Instead Israel bulldozed the Palestinian villages they couldn't use. It was an expansionist philosophy. It's been done by many other nations before. That doesn't make it right, however.

There are two sides to the story.

On the other hand, I admire the Jewish courage that I have seen in Israel. They founded their nation despite severe opposition and in the face of terrible odds, which is impressive. I admire their bold stance for democracy in a region where such freedom is unheard of.

There is good and bad. I am not justifying the terrorist bombers, but explaining them. I don't believe in the bloodshed that has occurred on either side. I am very much in favor of Mahmoud Abbas and the Palestinian Authority right now, a group that is struggling to do what is right under severe pressure from all sides and with few resources.

Originally Posted by Radagast the Brown

What I thought...? I was personally for it. It doesn't have to do much with the peace process really... no one had peace in mind IMO, not here anyway. It was basically realizing we can't keep about one soldier per settler, in the middle of the strip... millions of palestinians surrounding. It's just illogical and dangerous. So we got out. Doubt it will continue to the West Bank sometime soon, since I doubt Sharon wants it or has any majority. He could barely do this one.

I'm not sure really what I feel about the settlers.. It's hard for me to feel sympathy, because they could leave weeks ago, but they decided to stay have their things packed by strangers, not having a place to live in and not get compensations for the ruined houses.. fine. I can say I even hate some of them...

I don't tihnk much would be changed in the relations with Palestinians.. But that's just me.. I thought it was obvious that in a future peace treatment Gaza would be Palestinian.

I agree with all the above. I don't feel much sympathy for the settlers. Just a little. I do sympathize very much with the soldiers who are forced to take the settlers from their homes. What a hideous task. I've been praying for those Israeli soldiers, for their comfort and peace, a good deal. I've been praying for them and the Palestinian security forces that are trying to keep Israel from being attacked during this process.

Originally Posted by Radagast the Brown

And I really don't like the idea of having Palestinians still coming in Israel... But maybe it's just me. I just thought it would end after we leave them to live by theirselves. Like they wanted.

I can understand that, Radagast. If I were an Israelite, I might feel the same. They've been enemies a long time with Israel, so building yourself a wall and slicing yourself off from the problem permanently must seem very attractive. However, I also think it's a selfish perspective. Israel's economy may be in trouble because of the terrorism, but that is nothing in comparison with the disaster that Gaza's economy is. Many, many people there have jobs only because they can work in Israel. Israel isolating itself would destroy their way of living. The wall already has cut many Palestinians off from basic medical services.

[Spock]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

First of all, I don't at all care for your use of the word "they". .

Too bad, "They" are the subject of the sentence.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

You're also forgetting the other side of the story. .

No I'm not, it is just that I do not sympathize with your side of events.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I am not justifying the terrorist bombers, but explaining them. .

You echo the cry of liberal thinkers throughout the world who do not face the daily danger they proclaim to abhor.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I can understand that, Radagast. .

No you don't.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Many, many people there have jobs only because of Israel. The wall already has cut many Palestinians off from basic medical services.

Exactly my point expressed before. If "they" want a state (yes the majority can be called "they") then they are responsible for their infrastructure, Not Israel.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Spock

No you don't.

Are you saying you know what someone else can understand and what he can't? You most know Lief awefully good to do that, Spock. (Besides the point that such statements won't encourage good discussion either. )

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by Spock

They can't expect Israel to prop them up. If they can stop running around bombing people, shooting people and dancing before the cameras, they can build a state that utilizes resources, makes agreements and employes its citizens. Israel did it out of a desert and now the P. want to take the rewards of 50 yrs. of work. I don't think so.

What misinformed nonsense you spew sometimes. So every Palestinian is a terrorist? And every Palestinian doesnt want to work and wants to live off of Israel? And Israel never bulldozed and tied up the very infrastructure the Palestinians would need to live better then a third world existence? What ignorant ranting... I suppose you also thought that there was no reason for the black south africans to be bitching and moaning about living under an apartheid system either?

The fact is that the average Palestinian is NOT some terrorist zealot who wants to kill Israelis and live off Israeli welfare (I mean the very notion... And you call yourself a man of "logic") but is in fact just a normal hard working person who wants desperately to make a living by their own hand, to support themselves and their family just as any normal human wants. This is why walling them off and crushing their infrastructure and making it nearly impossible for them to get to and from work is ultimately counterproductive. Because you keep them helpless and angry and the militant voices will catch favor. But they WANT to live normal lives. They dont want their olive trees bulldozed and their families physically torn apart and deal with 800 checkpoints just to get to work or to market. would you?

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Spock

No I'm not, it is just that I do not sympathize with your side of events.

Someone's house is bulldozed by foreign illegal occupying forces, he's living on the streets, he can't get a job, he can't feed his children, and you don't sympathize with his side of events. I see.

Originally Posted by Spock

Exactly my point expressed before. If "they" want a state (yes the majority can be called "they") then they are responsible for their infrastructure, Not Israel.

Of course the majority want a state. But if another state has knocked down their economy, then that state does have a responsibility to clean up the ensuing mess.

If the US knocks down Iraq's government, it can't then just say, "oh, you guys want a government, build it for yourselves!" It has a responsibility to make sure that Iraq does have a good, stable government functioning before it leaves. Even if some Iraqis continue to try killing our people. In the same way, if Israel causes Palestinians to live in poverty, Israel has a responsibility to the Palestinian economy. The fact that some Palestinians are mad, humiliated and ready to fight back does not change the place at which responsibility lies.

[The Gaffer]

Good stuff, Lief. You show sympathy for both sides of the story.

Ultimately, an independent and viable Palestine is the only solution. Clearly, Sharon is withdrawing settlements with one hand while shoring up the West Bank with the other. I would say that this is a tactic so they can point at having made concessions.

But there's no denying it's a step in the right direction.

When you look at other terrorist situations which reached settlement, what you see is that "concessions" (even if they're minor and/or cynical) can gradually erode the support for extremism on both sides. Eventually, enough people are having a normal enough time of it to starve the extremists of support.

Clearly, Gaza is a long way from that situation, but I would hope that the international community can stick its hand in its pocket to a fraction of the extent we are doing in Iraq and make sure that Gaza becomes a success story. That would be good for both Palestinians and Israelis, IMO.

[Spock]

1. you can't understand unless you've walked in his shoes and you haven't.

2. it's not an illegal occupation, it is the result of a war unwanted and fought to preserve Israel, it's called "you lost".

3. After the Oslo Agreement, the U.S. announced a five-year, $500 million economic aid package for the West Bank and Gaza: $375 million in grants from the United States Agency for International Development (USAID) and $125 million in loan guarantees from the Overseas Private Investment Corporation (OPIC).
The United States gives over $100 million annually in foreign aid to the Palestinian Authority

From all international sources, the Palestinian Authority was promised $4.2 billion in foreign assistance in the five years following Oslo, but received just $2.5 billion, most of it from Western Europe.


What the he** do they do with all that money....oh I know, it's in Arafats daughters account in Switzerland to help pay for her parisian flings.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Spock

1. you can't understand unless you've walked in his shoes and you haven't.

I said that I found the point of view understandable. I didn't say "I know how you feel."

Originally Posted by Spock

2. it's not an illegal occupation, it is the result of a war unwanted and fought to preserve Israel, it's called "you lost".

So because in America the North beat the South in the Civil War, the North has the right to push all the Southern landowners off their lands and out of their homes and occupy them with Northern settlers, right? You're basically saying, "anyone who wins a war has the right to be a tyrant afterward."

Also, the occupation is indeed illegal according to the United Nations. Israel itself, of course, disputes this.

Originally Posted by Spock

3. After the Oslo Agreement, the U.S. announced a five-year, $500 million economic aid package for the West Bank and Gaza: $375 million in grants from the United States Agency for International Development (USAID) and $125 million in loan guarantees from the Overseas Private Investment Corporation (OPIC).
The United States gives over $100 million annually in foreign aid to the Palestinian Authority

From all international sources, the Palestinian Authority was promised $4.2 billion in foreign assistance in the five years following Oslo, but received just $2.5 billion, most of it from Western Europe.

What the he** do they do with all that money

This is the first I've heard of that. You may very well be right; I just haven't heard about this. Where did you get your information from?

[Spock]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I said that I found the point of view understandable. I didn't say "I know how you feel." ?

Point taken. I read you might feel that way if you were an Israeli and transposed meaning.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

So because in America the North beat the South in the Civil War, the North has the right to push all the Southern landowners off their lands and out of their homes and occupy them with Northern settlers, right? You're basically saying, "anyone who wins a war has the right to be a tyrant afterward."

No. In fact we here still view the north in an unfavorable light for those times. It's just that heavy handedness comes with the side that wins, it's been that way in almost all conflicts down through the ages.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Also, the occupation is indeed illegal according to the United Nations. Israel itself, of course, disputes this.

And so does the U.S. As for the U.N. it is un necessary. No teeth, no backbone and if it were never sidestepped or ignored, whole countries would have disappeared in recent years, not to mention Israel in decades past.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

This is the first I've heard of that. You may very well be right; I just haven't heard about this. Where did you get your information from?

Several sites on the www have the information, mine came from:

http://www.aaiusa.org/foreign_aid.htm

Oh, and I know there are much more recent figures but this was a more comprehensive and concise quote so I used it.

[Ragnarok]

Originally Posted by Spock

You echo the cry of liberal thinkers throughout the world who do not face the daily danger they proclaim to abhor.

Thats right, take a cheap shot at the liberals..