Israel, Gaza, and the Middle East Conflict

wahine · 06-12-2003, 04:55 PM

In light of recent events, (and hopefully a thread isn't made on this already) I thought perhaps we should discuss who is right in the battle for the land that the Dome of the Rock is on. Including the discussion on the terrorist attacks and counter attacks (and counter counter attacks etc). Also on the peace talks.

I only found an article on the Gaza attack so here it is.

GAZA CITY (CNN) -- An Israeli helicopter gunship fired at a car in Gaza City on Thursday, killing seven Palestinians and wounding at least 25, Palestinian medical officials said. It was the third Israeli helicopter attack in Gaza in 24 hours.

The apparent target of the attack was Yasser Taha, a senior member of Hamas, the Palestinian militant group that has rejected calls for a cease-fire. He was killed along with his wife and 3-year-old daughter, when a missile hit their car, the medical officials said.

Taha had been wanted by Israel for months. Israeli forces had bulldozed his house in Gaza several months ago. They also had arrested his father and brother.

Hamas spokesman Mahmoud Al-Zahar called the strike a crime and warned that every Israeli is now a target.

Israel Defense Forces had no immediate comment on the attack.

At a Cabinet meeting Thursday, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said Israel would not abandon its policy of targeting militant leaders, explaining that it was not a condition of last week's Israeli-Palestinian summit in Jordan to launch the so-called road map to Mideast peace, according to Israeli Army Radio and Israeli sources.

he ongoing violence, however, has underscored the difficulties both sides face in pursuing the plan.

hough the Bush administration had no official comment on Thursday's attack, a U.S. official involved in national security matters did say, "We have taken a dangerous turn in the road but we believe we are still on the road. We are committed, and we just have to somehow find a way to get through this difficult period together."

Thursday's attack in Gaza came a day after a suicide bomber killed 16 people in Jerusalem. Hamas' militant wing Izzedine al Qassam claimed responsibility for the attack.

In a statement faxed to news agencies in Jerusalem, Hamas warned that the suicide bombing was the beginning of a series of attacks and said international visitors should leave Israel to protect themselves.

"The Jerusalem attack is the beginning of a new series of revenge attacks ... in which we will target every Zionist occupying our land," the Hamas statement said. "We call on international citizens to leave the Zionist entity immediately to preserve their lives."

Shortly after Wednesday's suicide bombing, Israeli helicopter gunships launched an attack in Gaza, targeting Hamas militants. Palestinian hospital sources said seven people were killed -- including three Hamas militants -- and 40 were wounded.

Wednesday night, Israeli forces launched another helicopter attack killing two Hamas members in a neighborhood east of Gaza City, according to Palestinian security sources. The two helicopter strikes on Wednesday were not retaliation for the suicide bombing and had been planned earlier, Israel Defense Forces said.

In the wake of the bus bombing, Sharon vowed Israel would continue to pursue "murderous terrorist organizations" that "initiate, fund and send out terrorists." But he also said Israel is committed to moving forward with the road map, according to Israeli sources and Israeli Army Radio.
At Thursday's Cabinet meeting, Sharon characterized Palestinian leaders as "crybabies" and said Palestinian Authority Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas was "like a chick who hasn't grown his feathers," according to Israeli Army Radio and Israeli sources.

Abbas -- who pledged to crack down on terror groups as prime minister -- has been trying to negotiate a cease-fire with Hamas and other radical groups.

Israeli Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom on Thursday said, "This government will not march or walk in two tracks in the same time in parallel. I mean terror by day and negotiation by night. If these terrorist contacts will continue, I think that we won't be able to continue at the same time with the peace process."

Abbas and Palestinian Authority President Yasser Arafat on Wednesday condemned the Jerusalem bombing and the Israeli attacks in Gaza. "Ending this deterioration requires the commitment of all parties to end violence and cease-fire and begin serious implementation of the road map," Abbas said. His spokesman said Abbas was referring to all Israelis and all Palestinians -- including Hamas -- in that call.

...continued

wahine · 06-12-2003, 05:03 PM

Arafat called for "an immediate cessation of all forms of operations and shootings. The evil, vicious circle of military operation from all parties must stop immediately."

U.S. President George W. Bush and other key leaders involved in pushing the road map insisted the violence should not be allowed to derail the process begun with high hopes last week at the summit in Jordan.

"It is clear there are people in the Middle East who hate peace," Bush said Wednesday. "There are people who want to kill in order to make sure that the desires of Israel to live in secured peace don't happen, who kill to make sure that the [Palestinian] desires ... of a peaceful state living side by side with Israel do not happen."

For the Full Story

***azalea*** · 06-12-2003, 09:54 PM

I think you're right that at some point recently there was a thread about the Isreal/ Palestine conflict, but I'm not sure.
Anyway, I am just sick that the peace process has come to a halt, (which it has -- you can't work for peace and at the same time bomb people) because it really looked hopeful. I think Isreal will have to bite the bullet at some point and realize they must not retaliate by bombing. They'll have to come up with an alternate strategy for dealing with the suicide bombers, and if a bombing does happen again, they'll have to hold their fire, but demand that something be done by the PLO. The PLO should be doing everything in its power to take down the Hamas organization. Hamas is the greatest barrier to a Palestinian state -- they are mad -- they are doing nothing but hurting their own people by continuing in their insane agenda. I just hope that the PLO can have the courage to take action soon, not just "condemn" the attacks. Condemnation is meaningless if not followed by action to stop the perpetrators.
It's a complex issue that I don't know too much about, but I am so saddened by the current breakdown in the peace process. I think both sides need to do everything in their power (including restraint on the part of Isreal, which I know will be very hard) to work for peace.

***HOBBIT*** · 06-12-2003, 09:57 PM

Yes, not too long ago there was a topic on this.

***HOBBIT*** · 06-12-2003, 10:11 PM

well, they are really homicide bombers and what else can Israel do? Retaliating at least takes out some of the Hamas leaders. The attacks seem to never stop.

Agalayth · 06-12-2003, 10:15 PM

I too am very disappointed that the peace process came to a hault.

One thing that I can't stand is how many people's opinions on the topic are biased. I have relatives who live in Israel (mostly in Haifa) and I still don't have a biased opinion. Sure, I think that Israel should keep Jerusalem and much of its current land, but in no way do I believe that some of the things that the Israelis are doing is right. In fact, I think that much of it is very wrong. Then again, the Palestinians are doing some things that are much worse. They bomb Bar Mitzvahs, weddings, and other such festivals. I remember last year or the year before that, my dad told me that there was a huge bombing at a Passover seder, which is really quite sad. The issue, as azalea said, is a very complicated one, and your opinion can't be biased in this dramatic issue.

Then again, peace is still at hand. My older brother went to Seeds of Peace camp a few years ago. We live in Maine, so he got in for free.

He met some amazing Palestinian and Israeli friends there, and he didn't ever at all criticize Palestinians, and they never at all spoke badly of him because he (and I) are Jewish. It seems that some of the youngest people are the smartest nowadays...

***azalea*** · 06-12-2003, 10:51 PM

I'll admit I'm idealistic, but sometimes I feel like military retaliation is an easy way to respond to violence. I think that other effective responses exist, but are harder to implement. I think NOT reacting in a militarily aggressive manner would take some courage, it would be difficult, and it wouldn't be as satisfying, but I think in the end it would demonstrate a commitment to peace that goes beyond just talk. Who knows, it may prove wrong a lot of misconceptions many/ most Palestenian people have about the Isrealis (that they are "out to get them" or whatever).

Unfortunately, I'm sure there's so much propaganda and brainwashing that goes on that the battle in that respect is nothing but uphill. That is probably a bigger factor in the conflict than the fighting itself. I completely support the Isreali cause (to have peace in their nation), but I fear that unless they do something that doesn't involve bombing people besides talk, it will never happen, and so many more lives will be lost.

Like I said, I know so little about it, and my idealism should be balanced with common sense, but I just am such a peace lover, and hate the needless death of innocents that if I were king of the world I like to think that I could come up with a solution that involved as little killing as possible. There are no easy answers to be sure, but it seems that somehow someone could step in and solve the matter, and certainly if the PLO has any power at all, it ought to focus ALL of its energy at this point on stopping Hamas and other such groups from ever doing anything else to jeopardize the quest for a Palestinian state!

wahine · 06-12-2003, 11:31 PM

The one problem I have with the peace talks is they Israelites are supposed to give up land that is rightfully, by law, theirs.

The land (Dome of the Rock) is the MAIN despute between the Jews and the Muslims. And yes, it does boil down to their religions.

Israel is TINY, why should they give up one square inch of their land for peace? Why is that the defining decision?

*just a tired thought*

Cirdan · 06-13-2003, 01:54 AM

Nothing will ever be solved until the segregation ends. Would Hamas blow up buses filled with Israelis and Palestinians? Would Israel use helicopter gunships to assasinate hamas leaders if they lived in neighborhoods filled with Israelis. It's much easier to hate your neighbor when they are on the other side of the barbed wire.

It may be too late for any peaceful solution. History shows the most efficacious solution to ethnic hatred is the complete subjegation/dispertion/extermination of one side. I'm not advocating these; just an observation.

jerseydevil · 06-13-2003, 03:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cirdan
Nothing will ever be solved until the segregation ends. Would Hamas blow up buses filled with Israelis and Palestinians?

Yes they would - because last year or the year before they bombed the cafeteria of one of the univeristies in Israel. It was one of the few places that Palestinains and Jews felt safe together and could sit side by side. Both Palestinians and Jews were eating lunch together when the bomber blew himself up.

Quote:

Would Israel use helicopter gunships to assasinate hamas leaders if they lived in neighborhoods filled with Israelis. It's much easier to hate your neighbor when they are on the other side of the barbed wire.

Palestinians used to freely be able to move into Israel - now security is much tighter and palestinians have lost jobs because of the hamas bombings.

Quote:

It may be too late for any peaceful solution. History shows the most efficacious solution to ethnic hatred is the complete subjegation/dispertion/extermination of one side. I'm not advocating these; just an observation.

Sicne Palestinians have freely lived and worked in Israel for years - you have to wonder which side wants the elimination of the other. I think it has been made perfectly clear that Hamas wants the complete and utter destruction of Israel and will do anything to prevent peace. If peace comes to Israel and the Palestinians - it will eliminated one of the biggest rallying cries the fanatical muslims use to condemn the west and spread hatred.

I hope that Israel will back down just a little in their retaliation. I don't think they can fully - but someone has to make an attempt to break the cycle of violence.

Cirdan · 06-13-2003, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I hope that Israel will back down just a little in their retaliation. I don't think they can fully - but someone has to make an attempt to break the cycle of violence.

I heard this arguement on the Charlie Rose show. It was the same day Hamas declared they would not stop until every inch of Israel was renamed Palestine. I don't think logic or reason comes into play with suicide bombers. As long as the Palestinians feel disenfranchised there will be a supply of new bombers. It would require years of tolerating endless civilian casualties before the motivating factors receed. Even then many individuals power and ego are wrapped up in being terrorist leaders. Would they walk away from the money and power for irrelevance in peace? I don't know. And what Israeli leader could stand by and do nothing? Evetually reprisals would be demanded and receive a sympathetic ear.

My point about the segregation was that nothing would change unless that could change. I don't think that is a solution, but mearly one requirement. The bombings were much less frequent against mixed targets.

***azalea*** · 06-13-2003, 01:57 PM

I guess part of my point was that instead of waiting for a certain amount of time to start the peace process with the stipulation that no attacks occur, that they just go ahead and hammer out SOMETHING, anything to get on the road to a resolution. I feel like I'd do anything to get the thing going if I were a leader, and that the people would support that because they've been waiting so long for it. So I'd sya, look, let's just start somewhere, and carry on despite what else may be happening. They'll see that no matter what they do, it won't dampen our resolve for finding a solution to this.
But I know this has been going on for so many years, and you're right, Cirdan, about the terrorist leaders not wanting peace, and also that so many Palestinians don't want peace as the goal. I like the idea of integrating -- that all would be free to move about everywhere, etc. That would be very difficult and would take a real commitment on both sides.

[Aargh! Never mind about the rest of what I was going to say -- an annoying and persistent salesman just came to the door -- what do they not understand about IM NOT INTERESTED!

And you can't just not open the door because for some reason they just keep knocking if you don't answer the first or second time!!

So now I forgot what else I was going to say!]

Bombadillo · 06-13-2003, 03:00 PM

No offense to anyone of either country, but people have to realise someday that their fight is in vain. True, to the Palestinians it seems like Israelis are invading their country. And true, to the Israelis it seems like the Palestinians have stolen their country while they had their backs turned. But they have to realise these things eventually; they must try to be a bit more understanding. I think a compromise is truly in order here. But now that seems impossible, as people there have that mindless hate running through their bones.

Just for the record, Radagast the Brown is one of the very coolest people on the moot.

***HOBBIT*** · 06-13-2003, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bombadillo
No offense to anyone of either country, but people have to realise someday that their fight is in vain. True, to the Palestinians it seems like Israelis are invading their country. And true, to the Israelis it seems like the Palestinians have stolen their country while they had their backs turned. But they have to realise these things eventually; they must try to be a bit more understanding. I think a compromise is truly in order here. But now that seems impossible, as people there have that mindless hate running through their bones.

Just for the record, Radagast the Brown is one of the very coolest people on the moot.

What are you talking about? The country is the Israelis legally....

GrayMouser · 06-13-2003, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HOBBIT
What are you talking about? The country is the Israelis legally....

Which country? Israel as it exists now, or Gaza and the West Bank?

And legal on what authority?

Ruinel · 06-13-2003, 03:54 PM

What I'm posting is probably not the right thing to say and will likely upset or even insult some.

Before the terrorist attacks on 9/11, I felt a lot of sympathy for the Palestinian people. I thought they got a raw deal. I always wanted peace in the Middle East and thought that perhaps they would want it also, for their children. I used to take their side in arguments.

I was at home on that day, I had a doctor's appointment and was getting ready for it, I watched the events live. It was horrible. People were dying. People were jumping to their deaths. Then the news media showed a clip of the Palestinians jumping for joy, at the terrorist attacks against the US, celebrating the death of all those innocent people.

That was the last day that I ever had sympathy for them.

***HOBBIT*** · 06-13-2003, 03:58 PM

The British gave it to them. All of Israel as it is now is theirs legally. I'm not sure if the territory they got through various wars with the surrounding Arab nations they still have or not - but that land too is theirs (if they still have any of it that is... they were attacked just a few days after becoming a nation, any land gained in that should be theirs).

Radagast The Brown · 06-13-2003, 04:14 PM

[quote][i]origin

jerseydevil · 06-13-2003, 04:17 PM

I agree with Hobbit. Israel was created through the UN and Great Britain - with land that Great Britain OWNED. The whole region was owned by them after they destroyed the Ottoman Empire. Great Britain CREATED ALL the countries of the modern Middle East.

After Israel came into existence - the Arab nations waged war on them to elimate Israel - which almost succeeded. Israel fought back and ended up gaining land in the war. Most of the land that is "occuppied" territory was obtained by Israel because the Arabs attacked them and then lost. The only reasonthe Middle East is whining about the "occupied territories" is because they lost them in a war they started. If the tables were turned - I don't think the Arab countires would be giving up the land they conquered.

Currently and in the recent past Israel has been willing under the peace deals to give most of this land back - but they want a small sliver for security reasons - who can blame them? The Arab world isn't going to be happy until Israel no longer exists.

If the Palestinian bombings stopped tomorrow - for good - Israel would not be rolling tanks through the Palestinian towns. Like Hobbit - I also call them "homicide bombers" - you should really call them what they are - which are murderers.

Graymouser - if you want to learn about the history of the Modern Middle East you should read... A Peace to End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East

Sheeana · 06-13-2003, 04:24 PM

The issue is a little more complex than that. Palestine wasn't initially part of the invading Arab countries. Anyway, I don't really want to get involved in this thread, but I do want to say that while there are extremists in power on both sides, there will never be peace. Don't you just want to bang their heads together sometimes? I really truly hoped that Bush had somehow managed to wave a magic wand, to implement this roadmap of his, and for a time, it looked like he had suceeded. I don't know - maybe it's still possible. I hope so.

06-12-2003, 04:55 PM	#1
wahine The Original Amazonian Coconut Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Answering no questions, telling no lies. Posts: 753	Israel, Gaza, etc. In light of recent events, (and hopefully a thread isn't made on this already) I thought perhaps we should discuss who is right in the battle for the land that the Dome of the Rock is on. Including the discussion on the terrorist attacks and counter attacks (and counter counter attacks etc). Also on the peace talks. I only found an article on the Gaza attack so here it is. GAZA CITY (CNN) -- An Israeli helicopter gunship fired at a car in Gaza City on Thursday, killing seven Palestinians and wounding at least 25, Palestinian medical officials said. It was the third Israeli helicopter attack in Gaza in 24 hours. The apparent target of the attack was Yasser Taha, a senior member of Hamas, the Palestinian militant group that has rejected calls for a cease-fire. He was killed along with his wife and 3-year-old daughter, when a missile hit their car, the medical officials said. Taha had been wanted by Israel for months. Israeli forces had bulldozed his house in Gaza several months ago. They also had arrested his father and brother. Hamas spokesman Mahmoud Al-Zahar called the strike a crime and warned that every Israeli is now a target. Israel Defense Forces had no immediate comment on the attack. At a Cabinet meeting Thursday, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said Israel would not abandon its policy of targeting militant leaders, explaining that it was not a condition of last week's Israeli-Palestinian summit in Jordan to launch the so-called road map to Mideast peace, according to Israeli Army Radio and Israeli sources. he ongoing violence, however, has underscored the difficulties both sides face in pursuing the plan. hough the Bush administration had no official comment on Thursday's attack, a U.S. official involved in national security matters did say, "We have taken a dangerous turn in the road but we believe we are still on the road. We are committed, and we just have to somehow find a way to get through this difficult period together." Thursday's attack in Gaza came a day after a suicide bomber killed 16 people in Jerusalem. Hamas' militant wing Izzedine al Qassam claimed responsibility for the attack. In a statement faxed to news agencies in Jerusalem, Hamas warned that the suicide bombing was the beginning of a series of attacks and said international visitors should leave Israel to protect themselves. "The Jerusalem attack is the beginning of a new series of revenge attacks ... in which we will target every Zionist occupying our land," the Hamas statement said. "We call on international citizens to leave the Zionist entity immediately to preserve their lives." Shortly after Wednesday's suicide bombing, Israeli helicopter gunships launched an attack in Gaza, targeting Hamas militants. Palestinian hospital sources said seven people were killed -- including three Hamas militants -- and 40 were wounded. Wednesday night, Israeli forces launched another helicopter attack killing two Hamas members in a neighborhood east of Gaza City, according to Palestinian security sources. The two helicopter strikes on Wednesday were not retaliation for the suicide bombing and had been planned earlier, Israel Defense Forces said. In the wake of the bus bombing, Sharon vowed Israel would continue to pursue "murderous terrorist organizations" that "initiate, fund and send out terrorists." But he also said Israel is committed to moving forward with the road map, according to Israeli sources and Israeli Army Radio. At Thursday's Cabinet meeting, Sharon characterized Palestinian leaders as "crybabies" and said Palestinian Authority Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas was "like a chick who hasn't grown his feathers," according to Israeli Army Radio and Israeli sources. Abbas -- who pledged to crack down on terror groups as prime minister -- has been trying to negotiate a cease-fire with Hamas and other radical groups. Israeli Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom on Thursday said, "This government will not march or walk in two tracks in the same time in parallel. I mean terror by day and negotiation by night. If these terrorist contacts will continue, I think that we won't be able to continue at the same time with the peace process." Abbas and Palestinian Authority President Yasser Arafat on Wednesday condemned the Jerusalem bombing and the Israeli attacks in Gaza. "Ending this deterioration requires the commitment of all parties to end violence and cease-fire and begin serious implementation of the road map," Abbas said. His spokesman said Abbas was referring to all Israelis and all Palestinians -- including Hamas -- in that call. ...continued __________________ Hem, hem Last edited by wahine : 06-12-2003 at 05:00 PM.

06-12-2003, 05:03 PM	#2
wahine The Original Amazonian Coconut Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Answering no questions, telling no lies. Posts: 753	Arafat called for "an immediate cessation of all forms of operations and shootings. The evil, vicious circle of military operation from all parties must stop immediately." U.S. President George W. Bush and other key leaders involved in pushing the road map insisted the violence should not be allowed to derail the process begun with high hopes last week at the summit in Jordan. "It is clear there are people in the Middle East who hate peace," Bush said Wednesday. "There are people who want to kill in order to make sure that the desires of Israel to live in secured peace don't happen, who kill to make sure that the [Palestinian] desires ... of a peaceful state living side by side with Israel do not happen." For the Full Story __________________ Hem, hem

06-12-2003, 09:57 PM	#4
*HOBBIT* Saviour of Entmoot Admiral Join Date: Nov 1999 Location: NC/NJ (no longer Same place as bmilder.) Posts: 61,986	Yes, not too long ago there was a topic on this. __________________ President Emeritus (2000-2004) Private message (or email) me if you need any assistance. I am here to help! "I'm up to here with cool, ok? I'm so amazingly cool you could keep a side of meat in me for a month. I am so hip I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis" - Zaphod Beeblebrox Latest Blog Post: Just Quit Facebook? No One Cares!

06-12-2003, 10:11 PM	#5
*HOBBIT* Saviour of Entmoot Admiral Join Date: Nov 1999 Location: NC/NJ (no longer Same place as bmilder.) Posts: 61,986	well, they are really homicide bombers and what else can Israel do? Retaliating at least takes out some of the Hamas leaders. The attacks seem to never stop. __________________ President Emeritus (2000-2004) Private message (or email) me if you need any assistance. I am here to help! "I'm up to here with cool, ok? I'm so amazingly cool you could keep a side of meat in me for a month. I am so hip I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis" - Zaphod Beeblebrox Latest Blog Post: Just Quit Facebook? No One Cares!

06-12-2003, 10:15 PM	#6
Agalayth Elven Warrior Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 215	I too am very disappointed that the peace process came to a hault. One thing that I can't stand is how many people's opinions on the topic are biased. I have relatives who live in Israel (mostly in Haifa) and I still don't have a biased opinion. Sure, I think that Israel should keep Jerusalem and much of its current land, but in no way do I believe that some of the things that the Israelis are doing is right. In fact, I think that much of it is very wrong. Then again, the Palestinians are doing some things that are much worse. They bomb Bar Mitzvahs, weddings, and other such festivals. I remember last year or the year before that, my dad told me that there was a huge bombing at a Passover seder, which is really quite sad. The issue, as azalea said, is a very complicated one, and your opinion can't be biased in this dramatic issue. Then again, peace is still at hand. My older brother went to Seeds of Peace camp a few years ago. We live in Maine, so he got in for free. He met some amazing Palestinian and Israeli friends there, and he didn't ever at all criticize Palestinians, and they never at all spoke badly of him because he (and I) are Jewish. It seems that some of the youngest people are the smartest nowadays... __________________ Chickens at rest will stay at rest unless acted upon by an unbalanced force. Chickens in motion tend to cross the road.

06-12-2003, 09:54 PM	#3
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	I think you're right that at some point recently there was a thread about the Isreal/ Palestine conflict, but I'm not sure. Anyway, I am just sick that the peace process has come to a halt, (which it has -- you can't work for peace and at the same time bomb people) because it really looked hopeful. I think Isreal will have to bite the bullet at some point and realize they must not retaliate by bombing. They'll have to come up with an alternate strategy for dealing with the suicide bombers, and if a bombing does happen again, they'll have to hold their fire, but demand that something be done by the PLO. The PLO should be doing everything in its power to take down the Hamas organization. Hamas is the greatest barrier to a Palestinian state -- they are mad -- they are doing nothing but hurting their own people by continuing in their insane agenda. I just hope that the PLO can have the courage to take action soon, not just "condemn" the attacks. Condemnation is meaningless if not followed by action to stop the perpetrators. It's a complex issue that I don't know too much about, but I am so saddened by the current breakdown in the peace process. I think both sides need to do everything in their power (including restraint on the part of Isreal, which I know will be very hard) to work for peace.

06-12-2003, 10:51 PM	#7
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	I'll admit I'm idealistic, but sometimes I feel like military retaliation is an easy way to respond to violence. I think that other effective responses exist, but are harder to implement. I think NOT reacting in a militarily aggressive manner would take some courage, it would be difficult, and it wouldn't be as satisfying, but I think in the end it would demonstrate a commitment to peace that goes beyond just talk. Who knows, it may prove wrong a lot of misconceptions many/ most Palestenian people have about the Isrealis (that they are "out to get them" or whatever). Unfortunately, I'm sure there's so much propaganda and brainwashing that goes on that the battle in that respect is nothing but uphill. That is probably a bigger factor in the conflict than the fighting itself. I completely support the Isreali cause (to have peace in their nation), but I fear that unless they do something that doesn't involve bombing people besides talk, it will never happen, and so many more lives will be lost. Like I said, I know so little about it, and my idealism should be balanced with common sense, but I just am such a peace lover, and hate the needless death of innocents that if I were king of the world I like to think that I could come up with a solution that involved as little killing as possible. There are no easy answers to be sure, but it seems that somehow someone could step in and solve the matter, and certainly if the PLO has any power at all, it ought to focus ALL of its energy at this point on stopping Hamas and other such groups from ever doing anything else to jeopardize the quest for a Palestinian state!

06-12-2003, 11:31 PM	#8
wahine The Original Amazonian Coconut Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Answering no questions, telling no lies. Posts: 753	The one problem I have with the peace talks is they Israelites are supposed to give up land that is rightfully, by law, theirs. The land (Dome of the Rock) is the MAIN despute between the Jews and the Muslims. And yes, it does boil down to their religions. Israel is TINY, why should they give up one square inch of their land for peace? Why is that the defining decision? just a tired thought __________________ Hem, hem

06-13-2003, 01:54 AM	#9
Cirdan Elf Lord of the Grey Havens Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: somewhere else Posts: 2,381	Nothing will ever be solved until the segregation ends. Would Hamas blow up buses filled with Israelis and Palestinians? Would Israel use helicopter gunships to assasinate hamas leaders if they lived in neighborhoods filled with Israelis. It's much easier to hate your neighbor when they are on the other side of the barbed wire. It may be too late for any peaceful solution. History shows the most efficacious solution to ethnic hatred is the complete subjegation/dispertion/extermination of one side. I'm not advocating these; just an observation. __________________ There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary

06-13-2003, 01:57 PM	#12
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	I guess part of my point was that instead of waiting for a certain amount of time to start the peace process with the stipulation that no attacks occur, that they just go ahead and hammer out SOMETHING, anything to get on the road to a resolution. I feel like I'd do anything to get the thing going if I were a leader, and that the people would support that because they've been waiting so long for it. So I'd sya, look, let's just start somewhere, and carry on despite what else may be happening. They'll see that no matter what they do, it won't dampen our resolve for finding a solution to this. But I know this has been going on for so many years, and you're right, Cirdan, about the terrorist leaders not wanting peace, and also that so many Palestinians don't want peace as the goal. I like the idea of integrating -- that all would be free to move about everywhere, etc. That would be very difficult and would take a real commitment on both sides. [Aargh! Never mind about the rest of what I was going to say -- an annoying and persistent salesman just came to the door -- what do they not understand about IM NOT INTERESTED! And you can't just not open the door because for some reason they just keep knocking if you don't answer the first or second time!! So now I forgot what else I was going to say!]

06-13-2003, 03:00 PM	#13
Bombadillo "The Bomb" Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: all over the place Posts: 1,601	No offense to anyone of either country, but people have to realise someday that their fight is in vain. True, to the Palestinians it seems like Israelis are invading their country. And true, to the Israelis it seems like the Palestinians have stolen their country while they had their backs turned. But they have to realise these things eventually; they must try to be a bit more understanding. I think a compromise is truly in order here. But now that seems impossible, as people there have that mindless hate running through their bones. Just for the record, Radagast the Brown is one of the very coolest people on the moot. __________________ Could it be that one path to enlightenment leads through insanity? Last edited by Bombadillo : 06-13-2003 at 03:04 PM.

06-13-2003, 03:54 PM	#16
Ruinel Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: I have no idea. Posts: 5,441	What I'm posting is probably not the right thing to say and will likely upset or even insult some. Before the terrorist attacks on 9/11, I felt a lot of sympathy for the Palestinian people. I thought they got a raw deal. I always wanted peace in the Middle East and thought that perhaps they would want it also, for their children. I used to take their side in arguments. I was at home on that day, I had a doctor's appointment and was getting ready for it, I watched the events live. It was horrible. People were dying. People were jumping to their deaths. Then the news media showed a clip of the Palestinians jumping for joy, at the terrorist attacks against the US, celebrating the death of all those innocent people. That was the last day that I ever had sympathy for them.

06-13-2003, 03:58 PM	#17
*HOBBIT* Saviour of Entmoot Admiral Join Date: Nov 1999 Location: NC/NJ (no longer Same place as bmilder.) Posts: 61,986	The British gave it to them. All of Israel as it is now is theirs legally. I'm not sure if the territory they got through various wars with the surrounding Arab nations they still have or not - but that land too is theirs (if they still have any of it that is... they were attacked just a few days after becoming a nation, any land gained in that should be theirs). __________________ President Emeritus (2000-2004) Private message (or email) me if you need any assistance. I am here to help! "I'm up to here with cool, ok? I'm so amazingly cool you could keep a side of meat in me for a month. I am so hip I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis" - Zaphod Beeblebrox Latest Blog Post: Just Quit Facebook? No One Cares!

06-13-2003, 04:14 PM	#18
Radagast The Brown Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Israel Posts: 6,975	[quote][i]origin __________________ Lalala... poof! AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

06-13-2003, 04:17 PM	#19
jerseydevil I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Plainsboro, NJ Posts: 9,431	I agree with Hobbit. Israel was created through the UN and Great Britain - with land that Great Britain OWNED. The whole region was owned by them after they destroyed the Ottoman Empire. Great Britain CREATED ALL the countries of the modern Middle East. After Israel came into existence - the Arab nations waged war on them to elimate Israel - which almost succeeded. Israel fought back and ended up gaining land in the war. Most of the land that is "occuppied" territory was obtained by Israel because the Arabs attacked them and then lost. The only reasonthe Middle East is whining about the "occupied territories" is because they lost them in a war they started. If the tables were turned - I don't think the Arab countires would be giving up the land they conquered. Currently and in the recent past Israel has been willing under the peace deals to give most of this land back - but they want a small sliver for security reasons - who can blame them? The Arab world isn't going to be happy until Israel no longer exists. If the Palestinian bombings stopped tomorrow - for good - Israel would not be rolling tanks through the Palestinian towns. Like Hobbit - I also call them "homicide bombers" - you should really call them what they are - which are murderers. Graymouser - if you want to learn about the history of the Modern Middle East you should read... A Peace to End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East __________________ Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 06-13-2003 at 04:26 PM.

06-13-2003, 04:24 PM	#20
Sheeana Lord of the Pants Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 1,382	The issue is a little more complex than that. Palestine wasn't initially part of the invading Arab countries. Anyway, I don't really want to get involved in this thread, but I do want to say that while there are extremists in power on both sides, there will never be peace. Don't you just want to bang their heads together sometimes? I really truly hoped that Bush had somehow managed to wave a magic wand, to implement this roadmap of his, and for a time, it looked like he had suceeded. I don't know - maybe it's still possible. I hope so.