Divine Intervention or Weak Plot?

[Beren3000]

Hi, everybody; I got a new question for you.
The sequence of events that led up to the destruction of the Ring seems to be tailor-made to serve that purpose:
-Boromir's lust for the Ring that led to Frodo's motivation to go to Mordor
-The meeting with Gollum in the Emyn Muil
-Pippin's spotting the Palantir
-And of course the all-time famous: Gollum's dropping the Ring by accident
It seems that the Ring couldn't have been destroyed if any of these single events didn't take place or happened in another way.
So my question is, do you think that this is part of Tolkien's belief, that God guides the way of Good and ensures its triumph? Or is this just too many close shaves for one story?

[me9996]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

Hi, everybody; I got a new question for you.
The sequence of events that led up to the destruction of the Ring seems to be tailor-made to serve that purpose:
-Boromir's lust for the Ring that led to Frodo's motivation to go to Mordor
-The meeting with Gollum in the Emyn Muil
-Pippin's spotting the Palantir
-And of course the all-time famous: Gollum's dropping the Ring by accident
It seems that the Ring couldn't have been destroyed if any of these single events didn't take place or happened in another way.
So my question is, do you think that this is part of Tolkien's belief, that God guides the way of Good and ensures its triumph? Or is this just too many close shaves for one story?

-On Boromir:Ironic, eh?
-On Gollum at Emyn Muil:Perfect place to stop nasty hobbitses!!!
-On Pippin:How could he miss it?!?
-On Droping rings:The ring manted to escape!!!

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by me9996

-On Pippin:How could he miss it?!?

Well - only on the exact right angle, the Palantir would actually work.. from Unfinished Tales.

-On Droping rings:The ring manted to escape!!!

To escape right into the only place that could destroy it? (What's manted though?)

[Gordis]

An interesting question, Beren3000!

I am not sure that "the Ring couldn't have been destroyed if any of these single events didn't take place or happened in another way", save the last famous one.

-Boromir's lust for the Ring that led to Frodo's motivation to go to Mordor
Frodo knew that he had to go to Mordor, only he was afraid to decide. He said so himself. Without Boromir's attack, he would have gone just the same, IMHO, only he would have taken some others with him, the three other hobbits, probably. Boromir was going to Minas Tirit anyway, perhaps Aragorn would have gone with him, as well as Legolas and Gimli. I believe that the splitting of the fellowship in hobbit-part and Big-Folk part was Gandalf's plan from the start. The events would have been basically the same, IMHO, even the Rohan part. Gandalf could have persuaded Ents to attack Isengard instead of Merry and Pippin, and it was he who healed Theoden anyway.

-The meeting with Gollum in the Emyn Muil
That was not a chance meeting and hardly a divine intervention. Gollum followed the company from Moria.

-Pippin's spotting the Palantir
That was pure accidant, and not too important, IMHO. Gandalf&Aragorn would have soon fugured out what the strange fiery ball was. The important part was Aragorn's decision to look in it and make Sauron believe he has the Ring.

-And of course the all-time famous: Gollum's dropping the Ring by accident
That is the only case when one can suppose a decisive divine intervention. Or not divine. May be the moment Gollum swore on the Ring to be loyal to Frodo, his fate was decided. The Ruling ring's power punished him for breaking his promise as inevitably as the day followes night.

[The Wizard from Milan]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

Hi, everybody; I got a new question for you.
The sequence of events that led up to the destruction of the Ring seems to be tailor-made to serve that purpose:
-Boromir's lust for the Ring that led to Frodo's motivation to go to Mordor
-The meeting with Gollum in the Emyn Muil
-Pippin's spotting the Palantir
-And of course the all-time famous: Gollum's dropping the Ring by accident
It seems that the Ring couldn't have been destroyed if any of these single events didn't take place or happened in another way.
So my question is, do you think that this is part of Tolkien's belief, that God guides the way of Good and ensures its triumph? Or is this just too many close shaves for one story?

IMO it is god's plan (the music, to keep in line with Tolkien's cosmogony).
It is this overbearing presence of god that detracts from the whole Tolkien's work for me. In particular the subtext from the events at Mount Doom are so Calvinist; they are hard to swallow.

[me9996]

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

Well - only on the exact right angle, the Palantir would actually work.. from Unfinished Tales.
To escape right into the only place that could destroy it? (What's manted though?)

He didn't mean in his cave?

[mithrand1r]

Originally Posted by The Wizard from Milan

IMO it is god's plan (the music, to keep in line with Tolkien's cosmogony).
It is this overbearing presence of god that detracts from the whole Tolkien's work for me. In particular the subtext from the events at Mount Doom are so Calvinist; they are hard to swallow.

If by Calvinistic you mean predetermined, I would agree that one could make arguments that the events of LOTR are predetermined to a certain degree.

I think that if one was to look at other stories you can analyze them to a similar degree and find similar occurances of chance or divine intervention.

Sometimes what we consider to be an extraordinary event may only be an ordinary event that is memorable to us for some reason.

[Olmer]

It called destiny. The final result would be just the same, no matter which way you choose, but what important is HOW you will reach this outcome.Consider this:

Originally Posted by Beren3000

-Boromir's lust for the Ring that led to Frodo's motivation to go to Mordor

On another hand, Boromir's outburst saved Frodo's life, otherwise he would be quietly taken by Saruman's orcs and delivered to Isengard and later to Mordor. Or the Ringbearer would forever disappear under Anduin's waters with orc's arrow shot by Lorien's archer.
In any way, he fails the Quest, as he did on the Mount Doom.

Originally Posted by Beren3000

--The meeting with Gollum in the Emyn Muil

This was not a chancy meeting. Gollum was set by Gandalf to follow Frodo from the beginning. This is why after the escape from Elves this maniac, driven by sole obsession, strangely not continues his search going west, but sharpely turns around and waits for the arrival of the company in the darkness of Moria. So this event was set in motion long before. Frodo would meet with Gollum sooner or later, because Gollum had been informed about possible course of the Ringbearer.

Originally Posted by Beren3000

--Pippin's spotting the Palantir

Palantir throwing was not planned, but later actions was obviously deliberate. Gandalf instantly guessed what kind of round shiny crystal thing can make a stairs of Orthank to crack, while boulders thrown by Ents did not make a scratch.Nevertheless, seeing that this very danderous to handle object landed by Pippin, he did not rush to pick it up. He stays with Aragorn being busy discussing Wormtongue poor aim and waiting till Pippin , struggling and holding it with both hands brings palantir up the steps.Unfortunately, the trick did not work out : Sauron was taking an afternoon nap and missed the translation. But Gandalf knew that curious nature of Pippin would draw him near the palantir sooner or later. From half-closed eyes he watched as "idiotic fool" made himself comfortable with Sauron's walkie-talkie. So, Pippin acquaintance with Sauron was staged and would happens any way.

Originally Posted by Beren3000

--And of course the all-time famous: Gollum's dropping the Ring by accident

The Ring would be destroyed any way.Gollum was Gandalf's insurance policy against Frodo's failure. Neither of them would let other to walk away with the Ring. An outcome was predictable.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by olmer

...On another hand, Boromir's outburst saved Frodo's life, otherwise he would be quietly taken by Saruman's orcs and delivered to Isengard and later to Mordor. Or the Ringbearer would forever disappear under Anduin's waters with orc's arrow shot by Lorien's archer. In any way, he fails the Quest, as he did on the Mount Doom.

Something other would have saved him, I believe. He could have put on the ring at the sound of approaching orcs and escaped. And I still do not believe in Lorien archers.

Originally Posted by olmer

...But Gandalf knew that curious nature of Pippin would draw him near the palantir sooner or later. From half-closed eyes he watched as "idiotic fool" made himself comfortable with Sauron's walkie-talkie. So, Pippin acquaintance with Sauron was staged and would happens any way.

I disagree that Gandalf would deliberately let Pippin play with the walkie-talkie. The quest WAS on the brink of failure. Sauron, if he were not too overjoyed to see a hobbit, could easily make Pippin tell him about the Ring. One word about ring destruction plan or the mention of Mount-Doom would be enough. Or was Gandalf so confident in Sauron being an overemotional fool?

Originally Posted by olmer

The Ring would be destroyed any way. Gollum was Gandalf's insurance policy against Frodo's failure. Neither of them would let other to walk away with the Ring. An outcome was predictable.

I agree about Gollum. Gandalf was a brilliant manipulator: he tried to carry out the divine plan no matter what. He has forseen Gollum's importance from the outset. He let him "escape" from Mirkwood. Indeed Legolas's account of Gollum's escape sounds too silly to be believable. Gandalf, parting with Gollum in Mirkwood, must have told him to wait for Frodo and the ring in Moria. Do not forget that to pass through Moria was Gandalf's plan even before they tried the High Pass. Why? He knew they had to pick up the waiting Gollum. (Just a thought: perhaps it was Gandalf himself who made this storm on Caradhras to turn the Fellowship to Moria? ).

[Beren3000]

Originally Posted by me9996

He didn't mean in his cave?

No, I meant his dropping it into the fire. Sorry, I was a bit vague there!

Originally Posted by gordis

Frodo knew that he had to go to Mordor, only he was afraid to decide. He said so himself. Without Boromir's attack, he would have gone just the same, IMHO, only he would have taken some others with him, the three other hobbits, probably. Boromir was going to Minas Tirit anyway, perhaps Aragorn would have gone with him, as well as Legolas and Gimli. I believe that the splitting of the fellowship in hobbit-part and Big-Folk part was Gandalf's plan from the start. The events would have been basically the same, IMHO, even the Rohan part. Gandalf could have persuaded Ents to attack Isengard instead of Merry and Pippin, and it was he who healed Theoden anyway.

I respectfully disagree, I think that Frodo would never have summoned enough courage to go directly to Mordor otherwise. I think that if Boromir hadn't lusted for the Ring, he would've stayed with the Fellowship, went to Minas Tirith and would've gotten caught in the siege.

Originally Posted by gordis

The Ruling ring's power punished him for breaking his promise as inevitably as the day followes night.

It seems strange that the Ring would use its "ruling power" to destroy itself, don't you think?

Originally Posted by The Wizard from Milan

IMO it is god's plan (the music, to keep in line with Tolkien's cosmogony).
It is this overbearing presence of god that detracts from the whole Tolkien's work for me.

So you're saying it's BOTH divine intervention AND a weak plot? What do you think would've been a better way to bring the destruction of the Ring? (IOW, how do you think Tolkien should've written it?)

Originally Posted by mithrand1r

If by Calvinistic you mean predetermined, I would agree that one could make arguments that the events of LOTR are predetermined to a certain degree.

At the risk of instigating an age-old debate, where does free-will come into play then? I think that it's because of the characters' choices that the events turned out this way; Eru simply used these choices as agents in his plan for the triumph of Good.

Originally Posted by gordis

I agree about Gollum. Gandalf was a brilliant manipulator

I think you might be interested in this thread

Originally Posted by gordis

Just a thought: perhaps it was Gandalf himself who made this storm on Caradhras to turn the Fellowship to Moria?

Oh! A new conspiracy theorist joins the Entmoot family! Olmer, I think you have competetion

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

I respectfully disagree, I think that Frodo would never have summoned enough courage to go directly to Mordor otherwise. I think that if Boromir hadn't lusted for the Ring, he would've stayed with the Fellowship, went to Minas Tirith and would've gotten caught in the siege.

I must respectfully remind you that at the time Gandalf was already back around watching over Frodo. He saved him from Sauron at Amon Hen. Gandalf would never let the Ring go to Minas Tirith. Gandalf was the divine hand in the Quest, specially appointed to manipulate others carrying out the divine Plan. IMHO, the only REAL divine intervention was the ressurection of Gandalf.

Originally Posted by Beren3000

It seems strange that the Ring would use its "ruling power" to destroy itself, don't you think?.

.
The Ring was not exactly sentient or "clever". It betrayed Isildur dropping into the river and caused its master Sauron an age of trouble. A "clever" Ring would have gone to some orc. The same applies to Bilbo's finding it. Do you really think that Frodo's "prophetic" words to Gollum were just a coincidence"

But I warn you, Sméagol, you are in danger. ...You swore a promise by what you call the Precious. Remember that! It will hold you to it; but it will seek a way to twist it to your own undoing. ...You will never get it back. In the last need, Sméagol, I should put on the Precious; and the Precious mastered you long ago. If I, wearing it, were to command you, you would obey, even if it were to leap from a precipice or to cast yourself into the fire. And such would be my command. So have a care, Sméagol!'

It is exactly what has happened at Sammath Naur. Frodo while fighting with Gollum was wearing the One. He must have whished Gollum's destruction in the fire and the Ring, which he has claimed as his own, carried out the command.

Originally Posted by Beren3000

I think you might be interested in this thread

Thank you, it is really interesting. I see no fault with Olmer's argumentation there.

Originally Posted by Beren3000

Oh! A new conspiracy theorist joins the Entmoot family! Olmer, I think you have competetion

Well, that one was rather meant to be a joke...

[mithrand1r]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

At the risk of instigating an age-old debate, where does free-will come into play then? I think that it's because of the characters' choices that the events turned out this way; Eru simply used these choices as agents in his plan for the triumph of Good.

I think all people have free will. I just stated that one could make arguments for the events of LOTR being predetermined to a certain degree. I do not think the arguments are correct, but one could make the argument.

Rewording what you said above: You could think of Eru knowing all of the choices that everyone would make so he would be able to adjust his plan to make use of their choices for the triumph of Good.

(I think that there is already a thread on Free-will, so if people wish to discuss this further, I think IMO it would be better to discuss it there.)

[Rosie Gamgee]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

Hi, everybody; I got a new question for you.
The sequence of events that led up to the destruction of the Ring seems to be tailor-made to serve that purpose:
-Boromir's for the Ring that led to Frodo's motivation to go to Mordor
-The meeting with Gollum in the Emyn Muil
-Pippin's spotting the Palantir
-And of course the all-time famous: Gollum's dropping the Ring by accident
It seems that the Ring couldn't have been destroyed if any of these single events didn't take place or happened in another way.
So my question is, do you think that this is part of Tolkien's belief, that God guides the way of Good and ensures its triumph? Or is this just too many close shaves for one story?

Well, divine intervention aside (although I do believe in it), I think that these elements in LotR make it more realistic. Contrary to what your mother always said, life is not what you make it. Life is what happens while you make other plans. Things that happen beyond our control are the things that shape our lives, our stories. Think about any important event in your life, and you'll most likely come up with a sentence that starts like this: "If [something] didn't happen, I would never have..." Sometimes we don't like stories that have so many 'close shaves', because they're out of everyone's control- except the author's- and that sometimes makes us uncomfortable. But it's the same in real life. I think it makes the LotR 'world' that much more believable.

[Spock]

I always viewed it as "things work out", whether for good or evil, one triumphs. I'm tempted to say "the universe" but in LOTR it's really the Ring trying to get back to Mordor. It does what it can to influence events (gollum losing it, Bilbo finding it, etc.) but overall things happen that change the direction The Ring wants to go.

[inked]

Plot devices are under the control of the author. The characters may not be. Many authors have remarked on the "will" of the character in not proceeding in a previously charted course. So as the subCreator, Tolkien had to encounter and deal with the capabilities and developing characteristics of each character. The Ring wanted to get back to Mordor because as limited as Sauron, it could not imagine anyone wishing to destroy it. The single-minded self-consciousness of Sauron was naturally inherent in the One Ring. If the entire creation is supposed to revolve about one's self, how could the Ring or Sauron have known the "fool's hope" that was underway to fruition. In this sense, the Ring co-operated in achieving Mordor, but did not anticipate its destruction anymore than Sauron.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by gordis

I must respectfully remind you that at the time Gandalf was already back around watching over Frodo. He saved him from Sauron at Amon Hen. Gandalf would never let the Ring go to Minas Tirith. Gandalf was the divine hand in the Quest, specially appointed to manipulate others carrying out the divine Plan. IMHO, the only REAL divine intervention was the ressurection of Gandalf.

I agree with Beren. Frodo's words to Boromir were something like "You have made my mind clearer" not "You made my mind up for me", I agree that Boromir's attack certainly helped Frodo summon the will to take that road, but I tihnk he would have taken it anyway.

The Ring was not exactly sentient or "clever". It betrayed Isildur dropping into the river and caused its master Sauron an age of trouble. A "clever" Ring would have gone to some orc. The same applies to Bilbo's finding it. Do you really think that Frodo's "prophetic" words to Gollum were just a coincidence"

Here I do agree with you. I started a thread about when I was new to the Moot about 8 months ago.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Here I do agree with you. I started a thread about when I was new to the Moot about 8 months ago.

That sounds interesting: could you post a reference or give the tread name?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

It's here.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

It's here.

Thank you, I see I have practically repeated your arguments.

[Beren3000]

Originally Posted by Spock

but overall things happen that change the direction The Ring wants to go

And what exactly would you call these "things"? Divine intervention or Tolkien's way of making things work out short of a better plot?