The truth about Truth

[MrBishop]

Most people think that truth and lies are polar opposites. I must admit that the way that our language is put together would make you think so. I've done some thinking on the matter recently, while driving (best time to think really), and have come to the conclusion IMHO that not only are they not polar opposites, they have no relation to each other.

Consider this example.

A 16yr old girl is raped and killed. After an exhaustive search using what little information that was available, a young man (also 16) is arrested. His father talks to him and asks him lots of questions...the answers that he gets and his knowledge of his own son's character lead him to say:

"My son did not kill this girl!"

Is he lying or telling the truth? The answer is...

A day later, the coroner comes back with a hair sample, a fingerprint and a DNA sample in the form of semen. An eye-witness comes out of the woodwork and identifies the boy, the girl, the time when they both entered the park where the body was found, and the time when the boy left that park alone. All of the evidence points to the boy. He confesses.

Had the father told the truth? NO
Had the father lied? NO

Lies are based on the teller's perspective of events. Truths are based on what really happened. Sometimes lies are closer to the truth than truthful statements are.

Consider the application of this in politics.
Consider the application of this in religion.

We have to come up with a new word for the polar opposite of lying OR a new word for truth... Whereby fact does not equal truth nor vice versa.

Discuss?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Is he lying or telling the truth?

Your logic is flawed. The only way it can be a lie is if you know the truth. The father did not know the truth, therefore he is not lying. The act of lying hinges on knowing the truth to begin with.

This post is for JD who can't seem to make his 10,000 post because it has to be so special.

I should make this his 10,002 post, techically.

[Tessar]

Your examples aren't points of truth and lies.

Truth and lying ARE opposites--what you're thinking about is simply objective knowledge.

The son knew what he had done, therefor he lied to his father. The father believed the son so he told the truth as he knew it--now the father is not a factor in this truth and lies thing because he has no way of knowing the truth for sure till the hard evidence is before him.

Now if the father had KNOWN his son did it and said the son didn't, then it would be a lie because the father would have known the son did it.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

truth is relative, this is most obvious when it comes to such things as religion

God does not exist is true to me (& all buddhists) shintoists, taoists, confucianists
God exists is true to a christian, jew or muslim
many gods exist is true to hindus, sikhs, many animists etc

[Nurvingiel]

Wow, great thread MrBishop! I think you'll fit right in.

I agree with Chrys. I think there can be more than one truth.

About the example... what if the son was insane? What if he was insane in some way that he either had no recollection of what he did, or he truly believed he did not do it? Then, was he lying to his father despite not knowing the truth? Or did he lie regardless of what he knew?

Could we ever, with many scientific advancements, know if he really knew what he did or not?

[Tessar]

You guys are still confusing objective truths.

There is only ONE truth.

Now, some times it's impossible to know the truth for sure. I believe the truth is that there IS a God, but if there were no God, then it would not be the truth even though I didn't know it--it's an objective truth based on faith.

All objective truths are based on a kind of 'faith'.

For instance lets say I put a ding in the side of a car--the TRUTH is that there's a ding in the car. If I some how hide the ding, that doesn't make the ding go away, but if someone is looking for it and can't find it, their objective truth becomes that the car is not dinged, even though the TRUTH is that it is.

[Rían]

Interesting thoughts ...

I think the opposite of truth is non-reality.

I think the opposite of "telling the truth" is lying.

I think lying is a deliberate attempt to not communicate what you think is true, and "telling the truth" is a deliberate attempt to communicate what you think is true.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

ah yes, but realtively speaking, if the dent was to be mended, then the truth would change, and yet how can something change if it is an objective truth - positivity theory tells us that all such statements can change, and not only that but usually will change, nothing ever remains the same

if i were to say what colour is the sky, you (should) reply blue, yes?
if i were to hop in my TARDIS, go to ancient Athens and ask aristotle, or plato or whoever, then the reply would be bronze

EDIT: cross post with rian

[Tessar]

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

if i were to say what colour is the sky, you (should) reply blue, yes?
if i were to hop in my TARDIS, go to ancient Athens and ask aristotle, or plato or whoever, then the reply would be bronze

EDIT: cross post with rian

But what color IS the sky? Reguardless of what color I or Aristotole tell you it is, there is only one REAL color that it is--that color is the real truth, although my and Aristotole's objective truths might be different.

[Rían]

Yes, but the truth would still be that at a certain time and day, there was a dent in the car. I don't see how repairing it would change that truth.

I think there are some things that are a matter of personal taste and opinion, such as the exact color of the sky and which kind of ice cream is the best. Those aren't truth matters, IMO.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

yes, but you may notice that the statement has changed from there
is a dent to there was a dent, truth is merely relativity and perspective

[Tessar]

No, the truth becomes that there is no longer a dent in the door---the TRUE truth changed, but that does not change the fact that someone all along believed there was or was not one, and the fact that for a time the true truth was that there WAS one.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

i didnt say that that was the truth at one point in time, i was saying that the truth did change

[Tessar]

But my whole point is still correct on the grounds that, even thought it changed, there is still only one.

[inked]

Socratic definition of truth (per Plato) in words of one syllable:

To say of what is that it is and of what is not that it is not; not to say of what is that it is not nor of what is not that it is.

Truth is objective and self-existent and discoverable. Falsehood is derivative and discoverable.

[MrBishop]

Knowledge of the 'truth' or knowledge of what the individual considers the 'truth'? I believe that pretty much everyone confuses the two, because in our language, the two (truth and fact) are equivilated.

Someone says something. It can be truth, lie, truthful opinion, or untruthful opinion. Even fact is subject to the 'truth or lie' measurement

F'r instance. A devout Catholic Priest can say "There is a God" - as far as he is concerned, this is an accurate statement and is therefore, the truth. A died-in-the-wool athiest standing next to him can say "There is no God" - the same rules apply.

Both are telling the truth...but both statements contradict each other. Which is factual? Neither can be proven or disproven. So...which is the truth?

Take accepted scientific truths. The speed of light is a constant and nothing goes faster than the speed of light.

False - light slows down as it is curved by gravity-wells such as planets. Light heading directly towards 'black holes' accelerates because of the gravity, hypothetically to twice its velocity. Even smaller gravity-wells created by planets can accelerate light by a small percentage.

I seriously think that we've messed ourselves up by associating truth with facts, and placing lies as the polar opposite of truth.

**Ps...thanks. I love mentally challenging threads. I may borrow some old threads form another forum where I posted them and try them out here.. if'n y'all don't mind**

[inked]

You confuse the nature of fact and truth. Fact is a subset of truth. Some facts are empirically verifiable. Some facts are logical consequences. Some truths are self-evident. Some are counter-intuitive. But truth is not relative; it is, or the contrary.

[Spock]

Two of my favorite quotes on this subject are: 1) "the truth is out there" by Mulder and 2) "you can't handle the truth" by Jack Nicolson. IMO they are both correct.

[Insidious Rex]

Truth is a rabbit in a bramble patch. All you can do is circle around and say it’s somewhere in there.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by MrBishop

Most people think that truth and lies are polar opposites. I must admit that the way that our language is put together would make you think so. I've done some thinking on the matter recently, while driving (best time to think really), and have come to the conclusion IMHO that not only are they not polar opposites, they have no relation to each other.

Consider this example.

A 16yr old girl is raped and killed. After an exhaustive search using what little information that was available, a young man (also 16) is arrested. His father talks to him and asks him lots of questions...the answers that he gets and his knowledge of his own son's character lead him to say:

"My son did not kill this girl!"

Is he lying or telling the truth? The answer is...

A day later, the coroner comes back with a hair sample, a fingerprint and a DNA sample in the form of semen. An eye-witness comes out of the woodwork and identifies the boy, the girl, the time when they both entered the park where the body was found, and the time when the boy left that park alone. All of the evidence points to the boy. He confesses.

Had the father told the truth? NO
Had the father lied? NO

Lies are based on the teller's perspective of events. Truths are based on what really happened. Sometimes lies are closer to the truth than truthful statements are.

Consider the application of this in politics.
Consider the application of this in religion.

We have to come up with a new word for the polar opposite of lying OR a new word for truth... Whereby fact does not equal truth nor vice versa.

Discuss?

What the father said was a lie, but he was not lying as to him this was the truth and had been told to him posed as the truth. However I agree with Tessar that there is only one truth. People may believe may believe that the truth is different things but that doesn't make it true. The father believed what he was saying was the truth but that didn't make it the truth.