Is bringing the Elves to Valinor wrong?

[Beren3000]

This thread was inspired by one of brownjenkins' posts in the "which inflicted more damage" thread. He says that what caused the most damage in the First Age is bringing the Elves to Valinor in the first place. What do you people think? Should the Valar have left the Elves in Middle Earth? How different would ME have been then? Would avoiding the evil of Feanor and all the War of the Jewels be worth the Elves never knowing the bliss of Valinor?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I think that although bringing the elves to Valinor did eventually cause trouble it wasn't the wrong desicion. Melkor was evil anyway and a lot of resistance was provided from the Noldorin elves. If they hadn't been bought to Valinor then there would have been a chance that Melkor would have seduced them into becoming his servants, then the Firstborn Children of Illuvatar would have possibly been destroyed by the Valar. And Earendiel would not have know of Valinor, so he wouldn't have gone to seek Valinor, which could have resulted in no action from the Valar.

[brownjenkins]

just replied the following in other thread... but best to keep this here

Originally Posted by Beren3000

I disagree very strongly! You want to move this to another thread?

we had a pretty good thread on this point a while back: the valar

my point at the time: the point

and some textual support: evidence

as i said then... the initial act by the valar to leave middle earth and later let melkor basically have his way with it was questionable... and not really ever satisfactorily justified... at least in my opinion

[Beren3000]

But it seems to me that you're discussing whether the Valar were wrong to interefere in the War of the Jewels, whereas the question here is whether it was wrong for them to bring the Elves into Valinor in the first place. Please help me with this misunderstanding.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

But it seems to me that you're discussing whether the Valar were wrong to interefere in the War of the Jewels, whereas the question here is whether it was wrong for them to bring the Elves into Valinor in the first place. Please help me with this misunderstanding.

in the thread i referred to i was thinking big picture... which kind of ties in with the idea of bringing the elves to valinor... if they took on melkor from day one, and stuck with his imprisonment when they got 'em... the concept of valinor would be 'moot... the valar would still inhabit the whole middle earth

this is idea has a basis in tolkien's early works on the matter... and was never really reconciled later... they made the first mistake, so they bear some of the responsibility for all that followed

the "root of all evil" is melkor... and they let him hang around much too long... eventually they realized their error and took him out for good, but much damage was done because they put it off for so long... sure they had their reasons... but they were somewhat suspect

[Wayfarer]

I don't think there's much room for discussion on this topic. The Valar were clearly in error when they retreated and let Melkor have 90% of Middle Earth, and in doing so they had failed their duties as stewards.

Tolkien himself implies on at least one occassion that the Valar shouldn't have brought the elves to Valinor. The elves were Children of Eru, and were meant to inhabit Middle Earth just as Men were. The fact that many, perhaps even most, of the elves were strongly reluctant to leave only supports this.

By brining the Elves to Valinor, the Valar were attempting to keep the lesser children for themselves, much the same way a young child might become possessive of a pet. This is well in line with their previous actions, where they attempt to hoard all that is good in Middle Earth for themselves and shut out the rest of the world. This is done throughout the history of ME, and it provides some very good reasons for Men to be resentful, which is why Sauron is able to so easily corrupt the Numenoreans.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

whether it was right or wrong, both ill and good resulted from it.
if a decision seems wrong, then you must look at the consequences
to decide if it is truly wrong.

[Beren3000]

To brownjenkins,
I see your point now. I base my argument on the fact that it was GOOD for the Elves to have seen the bliss of Valinor, but you base it on the fact that it was better for ME that the Valar had intervened sooner. Well, the Elves would certainly agree with me, and Eru with you, so...I guess you win

[Wayfarer]

Beren: It may have been good for the elves to have seen the bliss of valinor, but was it good for Middle Earth, as a whole, for valinor to have been so blissful?

I believe that Illuvatar's original intent was for the Ainur in Middle Earth to occupy themselves with making the world blissful. When they sequestered themselves away in Valinor, and concentrated their efforts there, they were selfishly denying the rest of Middle Earth its fair share of that goodness. When the elves went to Valinor, what they were really seeing is the bliss that was meant to have been spread all over middle earth, but had been hoarded away. I think that's wrong.

All the Ainur, and the Elves, Men, and Dwarves, should have shared the world and cooperated in making it a good place to live. The Vala, by backing out and letting Melkor take most of it, made that nearly impossible.

[Attalus]

I agree that the Valar seem rather selfish to keep the Eldar around, going so far as forbidding them to leave. No wonder Galadriel left, anyway.

[Ælfwine]

By bringing the Elves to Valinor, the Valar (or at least the majority of them) forgot about most of Arda, not only Middle-earth. OK, they had Melkor under control at the moment, and perhaps they thought that things would remain so forever, I don't know.
the Elves most certainly gained from this, but is it really certain that the Valar could not have come to Cuivienen instead, and teach the Elves there?
And if they had done that instead, wouldn't all Elves have benefited from that?

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

To brownjenkins,
I see your point now. I base my argument on the fact that it was GOOD for the Elves to have seen the bliss of Valinor, but you base it on the fact that it was better for ME that the Valar had intervened sooner. Well, the Elves would certainly agree with me, and Eru with you, so...I guess you win

it's a tough call... i tend to take the pov that everything that happened in ME was somewhat "intended" by eru... he knew what melkor was about, yet still decided to send him to arda

i think he wanted his children to grow by experiencing both good and evil, as opposed to just creating a paradise... so i don't really fault the valar, or melkor for that matter... they were playing their intended roles

[Durin1]

"So it is Doomed". Mandos' words when the Valar make the decision to bring the Elves to Aman.

Does Manwe's "communicating" with Iluvatar occur when they consider the decison to bring the Elves to Aman? I haven't got the book to confer.

Why would Ulmo (the next most powerful Vala after Melkor and manwe) argue against the choice?

[Beren3000]

Originally Posted by Durin1

Why would Ulmo (the next most powerful Vala after Melkor and manwe) argue against the choice?

Interesting point. Probably because ME was his (Ulmo's) real domain, and in Aman, the Elves (at least most of them) didn't come into much contact with the Sea.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Maybe he was more perceptive than the other Valar. For it was only Ulmo and Tulkas who didn't trust Malkor, after he had been released from the Halls of Mandos and been pardoned by Manwe.

[Radagast The Brown]

I agree, Telcontar - I don't think it has anything to do with Ulmo's will to have the Elves near the sea. I think he could forsee the problems in bringing the Elves to Valinor, and thought Middle Earth was created for them by Eru... which was true. I still don't think the Elves were supposed to live in Valinor forever. I can't see how many dangers they'd have in Middle Earth - most of the armies of Melkor were either destroyed or hidden.

[Pytt]

what you say make sense telcontar and radagast. i don't think the elves should have been taken to Valinor. they were supposed to live in ME as eru's children, like someone have said before in this post.

[Beren3000]

But (to all of you guys), if you think in terms of the underlying symbolism in the Sil., your point is like saying Adam and Eve were not meant to see Eden...

[Durin1]

So is there a conflict between what the Valar desire and what Iluvatar had in mind? It seems to me that it couldn't have been all that clear-cut if there was some dissentions amongst the Ainur.

I'm personally of the opinion that the Ainur desired the coming of the Elves to Valinor for their own, selfish reasons. I cannot comprehend the logic in wanting Children of ME to live in an earthly "paradise", for all they knew, forever. What would have been the point of that???

There are many references during the Great Journey of the elves tarrying on the road and many turning away from the path (allbeit predominantly the Teleri). Wouldn't this have said something to the Valar?

And what about the Avari? They are treated almost as second-class Elves because they fell in love with ME.

[Ælfwine]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

But (to all of you guys), if you think in terms of the underlying symbolism in the Sil., your point is like saying Adam and Eve were not meant to see Eden...

But is not the underlying symbolism also so 'open' that the Valar can be said to represent Adam & Eve?
Or perhaps the three leaders that were brought to Valinor in the first place?
Or perhaps Thingol & Melian represented Adam & Eve?
Or Beren & Lúthien?