Parallel

[Valandil]

Just realized an interesting parallel which was created by Peter Jackson's changes in the 'Flight to the Ford' scene.

Think of that scene in comparison with Eowyn facing the Witch King.

In the two scenes, we have the two major heroines, both facing down the Witch King, with drawn sword, in defense of a 'fallen' and wounded hero.

Interesting that although Arwen might be considered more powerful, Eowyn was the one who gained the ultimate triumph over the WK. OTOH, Arwen was truly facing all 9.

Discuss...??

[brownjenkins]

one thing that did hit me about jackson's portral... which some have viewed negatively as making arwen a kind of 'sheena'

arwen had absolutely no intention of actually facing the nazgul... she was goading them into the river, so she could cast her 'spell'... so while it took a good deal of bravery on her part, i wouldn't quite put it at the same level as eowyn's physical battle with the witch king

arwen had an ace-in-the-hole... whereas, eowyn must have expected sure death and was willing to sacrifice herself purely to uphold family honor

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

arwen had an ace-in-the-hole... whereas, eowyn must have expected sure death and was willing to sacrifice herself purely to uphold family honor

Another difference is that Arwen had magic to draw on (and let's be honest: daddy too if need be ), Éowyn had no such luxury. An interesting parallel, but a bit vague though.

[The Gaffer]

Yes, though I can see where Valandil's coming from; it seems as if PJ may have taken Eowyn as the role model for this face-off. I thought it worked pretty well as a dramatic thing, though would probably have preferred to have seen Frodo defying the Witch-King to the last, not to mention Glorfindel "revealed in his wrath". oo-er

[Rían]

Oh, Glorfindel ... *swoon*

Yes, Frodo defying the Witch King at the Ford would have been marvellous to see (if it was done right) - that's one of the best scenes in the book, IMHO.

[Rosie Gamgee]

At the risk of violating the book-movie separation thing:
YEAH, BABY! Frodo defying the wraiths would have been so much better than that sappy sob-story redition with a lady of immortal grace lowered to riding through mud and bemoaning a moaning hobbit who bears little resemblance (in that moment) to his predecessor.

But, back on track: Interesting parallel indeed. I think Tolkien could have been a director with his knack for drama, as displayed in the scene with Eowyn and the Witch King. Drawing on that to create, for all intents and purposes, a scene boardering on parody (if one can consider duplicating moments in the same story as parody), is indeed quite interesting.

Do I sound vindictive in this post? I'm sorry. I do like the movies, I just seem to be in a bad mood and I don't know why.

[Valandil]

Now - a follow-up thought on this: So many who read the books, especially if they don't read the history on Aragorn and Arwen in Appendix A, like Eowyn more than Arwen, and can't understand why Aragorn doesn't go after Eowyn. From just the story itself, without knowing about the previous 70 years, that seems reasonable.

What if Jackson chose to portray Arwen in an Eowyn-esque way... to sort of make her more "Aragorn-worthy"...??? Do you guys think this might be what happened?

[brownjenkins]

good point Val... if the book was followed to the letter, the non-literary audience might be a bit at a loss as to why aragorn a) didn't go for eowyn, and b) all the sudden pulls this arwen girl out of a hat at the end (though the relationship is established briefly early in the book)... granted, there is the story from the appendix... but it is not in the 'actual' tale

it could certainly have been done the right way, but the accomodation may have been made in part for those not familiar with the story

[Elanor the Fair]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Now - a follow-up thought on this: So many who read the books, especially if they don't read the history on Aragorn and Arwen in Appendix A, like Eowyn more than Arwen, and can't understand why Aragorn doesn't go after Eowyn. From just the story itself, without knowing about the previous 70 years, that seems reasonable.

It is not a matter of liking Eowyn better - we just know Eowyn better. If you read the book carefully, even without Appendix A, Arwen is portrayed as a character far above Eowyn in stature, patience, loyalty, devotion, sacrifice and honour. The book contains many elusive references to the great love shared by Arwen and Aragorn which would have been impossible to bring across on the screen. It simply never occurred to me to wonder why Aragorn didn't choose Eowyn instead of Arwen. He chose the gentle moon instead of the bright sword.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Valandil

What if Jackson chose to portray Arwen in an Eowyn-esque way... to sort of make her more "Aragorn-worthy"...??? Do you guys think this might be what happened?

Arwen was indeed very Éowynlike when our 'gentle' Elven princess was waving a sharp sword around in the very first glimpse we had of her. Don't think it was all that necessary, and I'll actually think less of Jackson if he gave Arwen a swordscene simply to present her as more worthy of Aragorn. It ties in with some other discussion somewhere on the moot about Arwen and Éowyn. One does not need to have weaponskills to have a strong character or personality. Weaponskills does not make one more worthy. Well, at least in my opinion.

[trolls' bane]

Originally Posted by Elanor the Fair

It is not a matter of liking Eowyn better - we just know Eowyn better. If you read the book carefully, even without Appendix A, Arwen is portrayed as a character far above Eowyn in stature, patience, loyalty, devotion, sacrifice and honour. The book contains many elusive references to the great love shared by Arwen and Aragorn which would have been impossible to bring across on the screen. It simply never occurred to me to wonder why Aragorn didn't choose Eowyn instead of Arwen. He chose the gentle moon instead of the bright sword.

I've never posted in this forum before (didn't even see all of TTT) so if whatever I say has nothing to do with the movie please forgive me. Didn't Eowyn actually admit somewhere in RotK (not long after she met Faramir) that the reason she loved Aragorn was because he was powerful (you know, he was a king). I don't have that book any more, but I'm sure that she said that, just like I'm sure Legolas was the one to say my favorite line in TTT(book) .

[Valandil]

Arwen and Eowyn are also the only two people in the movies to hold a sword to Aragorn's throat.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Arwen and Eowyn are also the only two people in the movies to hold a sword to Aragorn's throat.

a sure sign of true love

[trolls' bane]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Arwen and Eowyn are also the only two people in the movies to hold a sword to Aragorn's throat.

Yeah, how friendly.

[Meriadoc Brandybuck]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Just realized an interesting parallel which was created by Peter Jackson's changes in the 'Flight to the Ford' scene.

Think of that scene in comparison with Eowyn facing the Witch King.

In the two scenes, we have the two major heroines, both facing down the Witch King, with drawn sword, in defense of a 'fallen' and wounded hero.

Interesting that although Arwen might be considered more powerful, Eowyn was the one who gained the ultimate triumph over the WK. OTOH, Arwen was truly facing all 9.

Discuss...??

Arwen most likely knew what would happen if she tried to slay the Nazgul and did not atempt to do it for that reason. That's my opinion.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Meriadoc Brandybuck

Arwen most likely knew what would happen if she tried to slay the Nazgul and did not atempt to do it for that reason. That's my opinion.

What would have happened then, I wonder? In any case Arwen didn't have to try to kill or even fight the ringwraith in armed combat. She probably knew that as well or she wouldn't have turned around at the other edge of the river.

[Rosie Gamgee]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Now - a follow-up thought on this: So many who read the books, especially if they don't read the history on Aragorn and Arwen in Appendix A, like Eowyn more than Arwen, and can't understand why Aragorn doesn't go after Eowyn. From just the story itself, without knowing about the previous 70 years, that seems reasonable.

What if Jackson chose to portray Arwen in an Eowyn-esque way... to sort of make her more "Aragorn-worthy"...??? Do you guys think this might be what happened?

Interesting theory. It may be that PJ was trying to pull Arwen a little earth-ward to make her a little more palatable for us- however I think that doing so hurt the entire concept of elves- especially elf-women. I mean, Galadriel even suffers from Arwen's intro, because she seems less high. If one elf can venture out on her own with a sword and a horse, trampling through the mud to look for this guy (who, since he was going to be king, should have been able to look out for himself, right?), then surely Galadriel wouldn't mind getting dirty, would she? It lowers the respect that elves have for their women, especially one in whom the fairest of all elf-women's grace and beauty was supposed to have returned.

Now, if one takes Arwen on all of the 'present-tense' stuff in the movies- what is happening 'now'- then I suppose she may seem a little distant, and maybe even not compatable with Aragorn. However, PJ uses up plenty of time doing 'past-tense' flash-backy kind of stuff to show Aragorn's relationship with Arwen. However, I think most of that time was wasted. All it would have took to keep the Arwen/Aragorn thing going, even after Eowyn enters the picture, was a few moments of contemplation on Aragorn's part- like that moment in the book at Dol Amroth when Aragorn plucks the flower and sits there for a moment, thinking (and it's obvious who he is remembering). Such moments would have kept them in love, despite the fact that they are apart. When Eowyn came along, we wouldn't have even thought for a moment that Aragorn could love her.

I think Jackson was probably trying to get a little tension going between Arwen and Aragorn- the ol' 'are they or aren't they' thing, the conclusion of such things is generally saved for the end. However, I think Jackson botched it, his biggest mistake being that he messed with the way Tolkien had it. Which, in some cases, might not be so bad, but he just made it too much of a Hollywood thing.

[Haradrim]

I think a better portayal of Arwen was necessary but it was definately not done the right way. I dont know what the right way was but that wasn't it. I THink Eoqyn and Aragorn wouldnt have been good I think they eached paired up with who was best for them.