Arwen's death questions

[Tuor of Gondolin]

In appendix a
"...she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave"

So, who buried her?
And why didn't she opt to be buried alongside Aragorn and in the city where her children lived?
And why is she, and to a considerable extent Aragorn, so pessimistic/doubtful about meeting again? (Recall their ancestors Beren, Luthien, and the clear evidence for the existence and effectiveness of Eru and the Valar and their concern for the children of Iluvatar (Gandalf and the other Ishtari being sent, etc.).

The only sort of parallels that come to mind are Feanor's mom (Miriel) and Celebrian. But Arwen hadn't suffered physical harm
and presumably hadn't yet (as a "human") reached her natural life span end, as Aragorn had.
=======================
There's some somewhat related speculation on an old thread
"On the death of Arwen".

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Tuor of Gondolin
So, who buried her?

Some of the former people of her grandparents perhaps. There were still a few Elves left in Lórien when she died.

And why didn't she opt to be buried alongside Aragorn and in the city where her children lived?

Maybe because Cerin Amroth was the place where she and Aragorn once were betrothet? It may also be that she wanted to rest nearer to the place where Galadriel and Celeborn had lived.

And why is she, and to a considerable extent Aragorn, so pessimistic/doubtful about meeting again? (Recall their ancestors Beren, Luthien, and the clear evidence for the existence and effectiveness of Eru and the Valar and their concern for the children of Iluvatar (Gandalf and the other Ishtari being sent, etc.).

I don't understand this myself. Arwen has chosen to be like a mortal woman and to share the fate of Men. It is her father and her Elven kin she will never meet again, but presumable she and Aragorn will be reunited somewhere, sometime, after death.

[olsonm]

Originally posted by Tuor of Gondolin
And why is she, and to a considerable extent Aragorn, so pessimistic/doubtful about meeting again?

Aragorn isn't pessimistic. But no one knows what happens to Men after death. It is a mystery.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Men have more certainty than elves. They have been promises that they spirits will continue to exist in another place. Elves have not been told that theirs spirits will continue after the end of Arda.

[Beor]

But if she became mortal, would not her spirit go with the fate of men's spirits? Or did she not become mortal? Did Luthien become mortal? Her and Beren were never seen again, I assume in Arda at all, so why should Arwen be any different. Now whether her and Aragorn met in the spirit world, who knows, but I would assume she was counted among the children of men once she made that choice. Huzzah.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Beor
But if she became mortal, would not her spirit go with the fate of men's spirits? Or did she not become mortal? Did Luthien become mortal? Her and Beren were never seen again, I assume in Arda at all, so why should Arwen be any different. Now whether her and Aragorn met in the spirit world, who knows, but I would assume she was counted among the children of men once she made that choice. Huzzah.

I agree with you Beor, there is no reason that the case of Arwen should be different than that of Luthien.. Both Arwen and Luthien chose mortality to share the spiritual afterlife with their respective husbands.

Edit: Ooops Beor, I called you Beren! Well, you may take it as an honour.

[Radagast The Brown]

I agree with Beor, and Artanis. Arwen said: "Though maybe my doom will be not unlike hers [Luthien's]" - I think she saw it in the future, but she wasn't sure herself if it's true.

[olsonm]

Arwen has the same doubts as the Numenoreans. What happens to Men after death is a matter of belief not fact. Aragorn has faith, Arwen is troubled.

[Beor]

Origionally posted by Artanis
Edit: Ooops Beor, I called you Beren! Well, you may take it as an honour.

Ah, that little upstart! My descendants continually disappoint me! At least he had the descency to live away from everyone when he came back! Ungrateful little whelp! (Note: this is not my opinion, nor should it be accepted as Beor the Old's opinion. It is merely a suggestion of an attempt at humor from the standpoint of Beor, being the ancestor of Beren. "Daddy never loved me", Beor said.) (<hopefully)

Also, I really dont mind, Artanis. You can call me pretty much anything you want as long as its not "[edited]" or "[edited]"

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
I agree with Beor, and Artanis. Arwen said: "Though maybe my doom will be not unlike hers [Luthien's]" - I think she saw it in the future, but she wasn't sure herself if it's true.

I always had the impression she was admitting that she was quite smitten by the young man with whom she was speaking.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Valandil
I always had the impression she was admitting that she was quite smitten by the young man with whom she was speaking.

You mean she liked him, and wanted him to think that he has a chance with her although she's an elf?

[Valandil]

Yes - that's what I think.

EDIT: otherwise, I don't see why she would have said that part to him at that time.

[Snowdog]

Originally Posted by olsonm

Arwen has the same doubts as the Numenoreans. What happens to Men after death is a matter of belief not fact. Aragorn has faith, Arwen is troubled.

Yeah, I think there may have been a seeming fairytale feeling for Arwen while Aragorn was living, but his choice to lay down his life broke arwen's heart and her will to live, even while their children lived and Eldarion ruled.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

I agree with Beor, and Artanis. Arwen said: "Though maybe my doom will be not unlike hers [Luthien's]" - I think she saw it in the future, but she wasn't sure herself if it's true.

I agree with you guys too, however there must be some reason that they were pessimistic about it. They were both very knowledgeable people, they must have had a good reason. I think Olsonm is on to something.

Nice bump Snowdog. But why do you say Aragorn laid down his life? Wasn't he over 200 when he died? I thought that was the end of his natural lifespan.

When Aragorn died, maybe Arwen went to Lorien in mourning, and died of grief there. Then the Elves buried her where they had been betrothred, possibly a last request.

If that hadn't happened, I imagine that she would have died in Minis Tirith, and her children would have buried her next to Aragorn.

[CerinAmroth]

Originally Posted by Tuor of Gondolin

In appendix a
"...she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave"

And why is she, and to a considerable extent Aragorn, so pessimistic/doubtful about meeting again? (Recall their ancestors Beren, Luthien, and the clear evidence for the existence and effectiveness of Eru and the Valar and their concern for the children of Iluvatar (Gandalf and the other Ishtari being sent, etc.).

The only sort of parallels that come to mind are Feanor's mom (Miriel) and Celebrian. But Arwen hadn't suffered physical harm
and presumably hadn't yet (as a "human") reached her natural life span end, as Aragorn had.
=======================
There's some somewhat related speculation on an old thread
"On the death of Arwen".

Here's my theory...

When Eru first gave death to men it was called the "gift" of man, but as time passed (especially during the time of Numenor), it became known as a curse, and people began to fear death more and more. That's why people are scared to die. It was originally supposed to be a good thing, but, once again, power corrupts. Arwen doesn't really understand that death for humans in Middle Earth is a good thing, like going home. She sees it as ultimately depressing, the end of everything. Elves tend toward melancholy, and they see everything as ending. It makes things beautiful, but also horribly sad.

Aragorn, on the other hand, remembers Eru's promise, that death was a gift. "We are not bound forever to the circles of the world, and beyond them is more than memory." I think its just along the lines that death is a special gift for men, and Aragorn gets that. Arwen is an Elf, and she sees a mortal life as doomed to sadness, because everything fades away.

[CrazySquirrel]

I admit I hate Arwen, so bear that in mind when you read further.

But really, the girl lived for about 3000 years. And now she is granted the way out the circles of the world, denied to elves. So she had the cream of both kindred's fates. And she could be with her 'beloved" Aragorn. And still the girl wines and cries! REALLY Aragorn would have been better off with Eowyn!

[CerinAmroth]

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

I admit I hate Arwen, so bear that in mind when you read further.

But really, the girl lived for about 3000 years. And now she is granted the way out the circles of the world, denied to elves. So she had the cream of both kindred's fates. And she could be with her 'beloved" Aragorn. And still the girl wines and cries! REALLY Aragorn would have been better off with Eowyn!

Heehee, true. But I don't think she really understands that she gets the best of both worlds. Leaving the circles of the world isn't something that Elves do, so its bound to be looked upon with some fear.

[CrazySquirrel]

Originally Posted by CerinAmroth

Heehee, true. But I don't think she really understands that she gets the best of both worlds. Leaving the circles of the world isn't something that Elves do, so its bound to be looked upon with some fear.

That's why I think she was a stupid old FOOL!

[The Telcontarion]

I distinctively remembering that LOTR stated that there were no longer any elves in lorin. My impression of her burial is that, after laying down and dyed, she was gradually covered up by leaves, plant debris and other detritus.

She was alone there. I don't think she stayed there alive very long.

[Jon S.]

+1

Somehow, in ME, natural world "knows" the nature of the corpses it receives. Where orcs are buried, often nothing grows for millenia or more. The opposite is true for elves and good men.