Your thoughts on ism's

afro-elf · 12-15-2003, 09:53 PM

From Dogma

) Having belief isn’t good?
B) I think it is better to have ideas.

You can change an idea. A belief is trickier.
Life should be malleable and progressive; working from idea to ideas permit this.

Beliefs anchor you to certain points and limit growth; new ideas can’t generate.
Life becomes stagnant.

Debate that is the only way people reaffirm that they are alive-by debating. In all its forms.

We spend our whole lives debating: we fight about who is right who is wrong, we fight ourselves, we fight each other, we death, we fight over beliefs.

People say life is a struggle. It is no. It is about living….belief is a dangerous thing. People die for it and people kill for it

jellyfishannah · 12-15-2003, 09:57 PM

If someone believes that belief is a dangerous thing...that's a belief, isn't it?

So people will fight over that... People fight. That's how it always was and always will be.

Guillaume le Maréchal · 12-15-2003, 10:52 PM

LOL

For someone who doesn't like beliefs so much, you sure do spout a bunch of them.

Regards,
Dave

jellyfishannah · 12-15-2003, 10:54 PM

Who? Not me...I love belief. I believe in beliefs!

brownjenkins · 12-15-2003, 10:56 PM

i have no problem with beliefs... i just believe that they should be questioned... regularly...

Insidious Rex · 12-15-2003, 11:09 PM

I believe Ill have another beer.

afro-elf · 12-16-2003, 12:38 AM

Quote:

If someone believes that belief is a dangerous thing...that's a belief, isn't it? So people will fight over that... People fight. That's how it always was and always will be

Using his definitions perhaps he as an idea about it as opposed to a belief.

Quote:

For someone who doesn't like beliefs so much, you sure do spout a bunch of them.

Moi? I just like generating discussion. Actually if I had to enspouse a belief it would om similar lines to Kevin Smith ideas but Richard Feynmann said more along my own style:

Quote:

.. I can live with doubt and uncertainty and not knowing. I think it's much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers which might be wrong. I have approximate answers and possible beliefs and different degrees of certainty about different things, but I'm not absolutely sure of anything and there are many things I don't know anything about, such as whether it means anything to ask why we're here, and what the question might mean. I might think about it a little bit and if I can't figure it out, then I go on to something else, but I don't have to know and answer, I don't feel frightened by not knowing things, by being lost in a mysterious universe without having any purpose, which is the way it really is so far as I can tell. It doesn't frighten me.

jerseydevil · 12-16-2003, 12:52 AM

I don't think beliefs and ideas are related really. Ideas are more like "I think we should do such and such about the palestinian crisis." or having an idea to solve something, versus "I believe the Palestinians are right." or "I believe the Israelis are right" or "I believe in god". On the other hand, I think that opinions allow for more gray areas and are far easier to change based on the circumstances and facts that come to light.

I have opinions and they change on the circumstances and facts. These are developed through personal observation and analysis.

Opinions are much easier to change than beliefs.

Lizra · 12-16-2003, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Guillaume le Maréchal
LOL

For someone who doesn't like beliefs so much, you sure do spout a bunch of them.

Regards,
Dave

Hee!

I have a few little beliefs,

but I have seen them change over the years....I know they are based on what is/has happened, and the future might change them, like it or not.

Insidious Rex · 12-16-2003, 02:02 PM

some other related quotes for you (which I know Rian will assail me on

):

"I don't 'believe' in anything. I know certain things - little things, not the Nine Billion Names of God - from experience. But I have no beliefs/ Belief gets in the way of learning."
- Lazarus Long

"Most people can't think, most of the remainder won't think, the small fraction who do think mostly can't do it very well. The extremely tiny fraction who think regularly, accurately, creatively, and without self-delusion- in the long run these are the only people who count..."
- Lazarus Long

***Valandil*** · 12-16-2003, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
some other related quotes for you (which I know Rian will assail me on ):

"I don't 'believe' in anything. I know certain things - little things, not the Nine Billion Names of God - from experience. But I have no beliefs/ Belief gets in the way of learning."
- Lazarus Long

"Most people can't think, most of the remainder won't think, the small fraction who do think mostly can't do it very well. The extremely tiny fraction who think regularly, accurately, creatively, and without self-delusion- in the long run these are the only people who count..."
- Lazarus Long

Ah... the world according to Robert Heinlein. It has always seemed to me that he was embittered toward Christianity for some reason...

Insidious Rex · 12-16-2003, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Valandil
Ah... the world according to Robert Heinlein. It has always seemed to me that he was embittered toward Christianity for some reason...

yeah i got that impression to. he was just a hard core leftist. But he had some really fabulous quotes though.

***Valandil*** · 12-16-2003, 02:24 PM

He was definitely a smart man. Naval academy grad, right? Also - well versed in the laws of physics and mathematical equations that govern gravity, orbits, etc - which he used to keep a sense of reality in his writings. Also seemed quite 'up' on philosophy, etc.

Ruinel · 12-17-2003, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by afro-elf
... but Richard Feynmann said more along my own style:

.. I can live with doubt and uncertainty and not knowing. I think it's much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers which might be wrong. I have approximate answers and possible beliefs and different degrees of certainty about different things, but I'm not absolutely sure of anything and there are many things I don't know anything about, such as whether it means anything to ask why we're here, and what the question might mean. I might think about it a little bit and if I can't figure it out, then I go on to something else, but I don't have to know and answer, I don't feel frightened by not knowing things, by being lost in a mysterious universe without having any purpose, which is the way it really is so far as I can tell. It doesn't frighten me.

I have always loved that quote.

Anglorfin · 12-17-2003, 04:39 PM

I thihnk we could substitute the concept of "ideas" and "beliefs" into scientific terms I think they would translate as being similar to the word relationship between "hypothesis" and "conclusion". That's not necessarily the best analogy, especially on a much broader scale, but it serves well enough. Ideas, like the hypothesis, is the founding point for later conclusions or firmer convictions.

I do however, like the philosophy of not holding any beliefs but having a few good ideas. It's always good to be flexible. Too much strife happens when beliefs clash. On the other hand when ideas clash they are still in that "cooking" or "testing" phase so it's a lot more open environment all around.

Guillaume le Maréchal · 12-17-2003, 10:40 PM

The only people who have to say they aren't afraid are those who are scared out of their minds.

Ruinel · 12-18-2003, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Guillaume le Maréchal
The only people who have to say they aren't afraid are those who are scared out of their minds.

I have no idea why that would be. I've heard people in jesus-bliss say how "unafraid" of dying they are because they know that Jesus will be meeting them at the pearly gates, etc. And when I say that it doesn't make me afraid that I live in a universe that is mostly unknown to us, and has revealed no purpose for being other than for the sake of being... I say it with all honesty. I am not frightened by this at all.

Guillaume le Maréchal · 12-18-2003, 01:10 AM

Quote:

I've heard people in jesus-bliss say how "unafraid" of dying they are because they know that Jesus will be meeting them at the pearly gates, etc.

Really? That's called the sin of presumption.

edit: ...and I still stand by my statement.

Ruinel · 12-18-2003, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Guillaume le Maréchal
Really? That's called the sin of presumption.

edit: ...and I still stand by my statement.

Atheists don't have "sin of presumption"

You have my permission to believe anything you want about me, or Feynman for that matter.

It bothers me not.

Anglorfin · 12-18-2003, 03:42 AM

To take that quote further, what if we did know? To me, life would cease to be interesting. While I don't admit to holding any fear of death, I am fascinated by it's uncertainty and inevitability. If we knew what awaited us, life would be duller. It's like reading the last chapter of a book first, or someone spoiling a good movie, or using an online walkthrough to beat a good video game. It's just not interesting anymore and ALWAYS a disappointment.

12-15-2003, 09:53 PM	#1
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	Your thoughts on ism's From Dogma ) Having belief isn’t good? B) I think it is better to have ideas. You can change an idea. A belief is trickier. Life should be malleable and progressive; working from idea to ideas permit this. Beliefs anchor you to certain points and limit growth; new ideas can’t generate. Life becomes stagnant. Debate that is the only way people reaffirm that they are alive-by debating. In all its forms. We spend our whole lives debating: we fight about who is right who is wrong, we fight ourselves, we fight each other, we death, we fight over beliefs. People say life is a struggle. It is no. It is about living….belief is a dangerous thing. People die for it and people kill for it __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

12-15-2003, 10:52 PM	#3
Guillaume le Maréchal Elven Warrior Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 126	LOL For someone who doesn't like beliefs so much, you sure do spout a bunch of them. Regards, Dave __________________ Miserable mourning is never the equal of noble action; nor are rest and relaxation as good as war, trouble and action. --Bertran de Born, Knight and Troubadour Castle Duncan

12-15-2003, 10:54 PM	#4
jellyfishannah Elven Warrior Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: The Library, may it live forever!!! Posts: 269	Who? Not me...I love belief. I believe in beliefs! __________________ "Always forgive your enemies - nothing annoys them so much." ~Oscar Wilde "Don't tell lies you can't keep." ~My little sister...

12-15-2003, 10:56 PM	#5
brownjenkins Advocatus Diaboli Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Reality Posts: 3,767	i have no problem with beliefs... i just believe that they should be questioned... regularly... __________________ Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.

12-15-2003, 11:09 PM	#6
Insidious Rex Quasi Evil Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Maryland, US Posts: 4,634	I believe Ill have another beer. __________________ "People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."

12-15-2003, 09:57 PM	#2
jellyfishannah Elven Warrior Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: The Library, may it live forever!!! Posts: 269	If someone believes that belief is a dangerous thing...that's a belief, isn't it? So people will fight over that... People fight. That's how it always was and always will be.

12-16-2003, 12:52 AM	#8
jerseydevil I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Plainsboro, NJ Posts: 9,431	I don't think beliefs and ideas are related really. Ideas are more like "I think we should do such and such about the palestinian crisis." or having an idea to solve something, versus "I believe the Palestinians are right." or "I believe the Israelis are right" or "I believe in god". On the other hand, I think that opinions allow for more gray areas and are far easier to change based on the circumstances and facts that come to light. I have opinions and they change on the circumstances and facts. These are developed through personal observation and analysis. Opinions are much easier to change than beliefs. __________________ Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

12-16-2003, 02:02 PM	#10
Insidious Rex Quasi Evil Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Maryland, US Posts: 4,634	some other related quotes for you (which I know Rian will assail me on ): "I don't 'believe' in anything. I know certain things - little things, not the Nine Billion Names of God - from experience. But I have no beliefs/ Belief gets in the way of learning." - Lazarus Long "Most people can't think, most of the remainder won't think, the small fraction who do think mostly can't do it very well. The extremely tiny fraction who think regularly, accurately, creatively, and without self-delusion- in the long run these are the only people who count..." - Lazarus Long __________________ "People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."

12-16-2003, 02:24 PM	#13
*Valandil* High King at Annuminas Administrator Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Wyoming - USA Posts: 10,752	He was definitely a smart man. Naval academy grad, right? Also - well versed in the laws of physics and mathematical equations that govern gravity, orbits, etc - which he used to keep a sense of reality in his writings. Also seemed quite 'up' on philosophy, etc.

12-17-2003, 04:39 PM	#15
Anglorfin Alasailon Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: college Posts: 861	I thihnk we could substitute the concept of "ideas" and "beliefs" into scientific terms I think they would translate as being similar to the word relationship between "hypothesis" and "conclusion". That's not necessarily the best analogy, especially on a much broader scale, but it serves well enough. Ideas, like the hypothesis, is the founding point for later conclusions or firmer convictions. I do however, like the philosophy of not holding any beliefs but having a few good ideas. It's always good to be flexible. Too much strife happens when beliefs clash. On the other hand when ideas clash they are still in that "cooking" or "testing" phase so it's a lot more open environment all around. __________________ "and then this hobbit was walking, and then this elf jumped out of a bush and totally flipped out on him while wailing on his guitar." "Anglorfin was tall and straight; his hair was of shining gold, his face fair and young and fearless and full of anger; his eyes were bright and keen, and his voice like music; on his brow sat wisdom, and in his hand was great skill."

12-17-2003, 10:40 PM	#16
Guillaume le Maréchal Elven Warrior Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 126	The only people who have to say they aren't afraid are those who are scared out of their minds. __________________ Miserable mourning is never the equal of noble action; nor are rest and relaxation as good as war, trouble and action. --Bertran de Born, Knight and Troubadour Castle Duncan

12-18-2003, 03:42 AM	#20
Anglorfin Alasailon Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: college Posts: 861	To take that quote further, what if we did know? To me, life would cease to be interesting. While I don't admit to holding any fear of death, I am fascinated by it's uncertainty and inevitability. If we knew what awaited us, life would be duller. It's like reading the last chapter of a book first, or someone spoiling a good movie, or using an online walkthrough to beat a good video game. It's just not interesting anymore and ALWAYS a disappointment. __________________ "and then this hobbit was walking, and then this elf jumped out of a bush and totally flipped out on him while wailing on his guitar." "Anglorfin was tall and straight; his hair was of shining gold, his face fair and young and fearless and full of anger; his eyes were bright and keen, and his voice like music; on his brow sat wisdom, and in his hand was great skill."

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