Why didn't Elros' children get the choice?

Captain Stern · 01-23-2002, 05:19 AM

All 3 of Elrond's children ( It was 3...right? ) seemed to have been given the choice, yet to my knowledge none of Elros' children were given the choice. It seems a little unfair to me

Was it this way so as to tie 'loose ends'? The 3 Houses of Men had to get NÃºmenÃ³rÃ« up and running and maybe if Elros' children had been given the choice as to which kindred they wished to belong to it may have complicated things? ( especialy is they'd all chosen to belong to the 1st born

)

Was there a diferent reason?

Findegil · 01-23-2002, 09:48 AM

Where did you know from, that they hadn't have?
Elrond's 3 children choosed all to become of mankind. So it might be that the children of Elros chose even more naturaly to be of mankind. Thinking of the choice of Elrond's children, which had to chose when Elrond left Middle-Earth, they had to chose when Elros laid down to die. And since Arwen, Elrohir and Elladan had only the choice to go with Elrond into the West or to become mortal, I would suggest that Elros' children could only chose to become mortal or to go into the West when their father died. So I wonder if we would know if one of them had chosen the elfkind and left Numenor.

In addition their is a passage in the last manuscript of the Silmarillion where the Valar decided that all further Halfelven should become mortal. That didn't include Elrond's children but it might have included Elros' children since he marrige obviously a mortal woman. And at least it shows that the Valar were in favor of the choice for mankind, and may be the wise Halfelven folowed them in this.

Regards
Findegil

Sauron's Nagging Wife · 01-23-2002, 06:04 PM

I was under the impression that the twins, Elladan and Elrohir, hadn't yet made up their minds when their father went West and so they decided to stay in ME. Have you got a quote that says they chose to be mortal.

Since Elrond's wife, Celeborn was also Half-elven, then their kids should have had a choice. Since Elros was already mortal, and his wife was mortal, why would their kids get a choice?

Captain Stern · 01-23-2002, 07:06 PM

I can't remember it saying anywhere that Elladan and Elrohir chose to become men? I had assumed for some reason that they chose to become elves like their father.

Quote:

Since Elrond's wife, Celeborn was also Half-elven, then their kids should have had a choice.

His wife was Celebrian not Celeborn! And she was a full Elf, not half-elf.She was the child of Galadriel and Celeborn.

Quote:

Since Elros was already mortal, and his wife was mortal, why would their kids get a choice?

Because Elrond was already immortal and had married another immortal, and their children still got to choose.

Ã‘Ã³lendil · 01-23-2002, 07:14 PM

I've posted a similar question, it's now on the 8th page I believe. Here it is:

Quote:

Elrond and Elros (Pereldar, or Halfelves) were both given the choice of which kindred (Men or Elves) they would belong to, because Earendil their father was a Half-elf, his parents being Tuor and Idril, and so too was their mother Elwing, whose father was Dior, son of Beren and Luthien (the latter herself being half elf, half maia in a sense), and whose mother was Nimloth, an Elf of Doriath descended (in one genealogy) from Thingol's brother.

So Elrond and Elros were Halfelves, and were given the choice. Elros chose the fate of Men, and Elrond chose that of Elves. Elrond wedded Celebrian (Galadriel's daughter), and their children were also given the choice. Elros's were not.

Why was Elrond's children given the choice of fate, but not the chilren of Elros?

Grand Admiral Reese gave me a wonderful answer:

Quote:

Maybe it was because one day Elrond and his children were going to have to move to Aman, and they had to have the choice(as having mortal blood is not allowed in Aman except under VERY unusual circumstances). Elros, having chosen the Gift of Men as his fate would never go to Eressea or Valinor. Thus, his children wouldn't be allowed to choose.

That's the best answer I've heard.

Sauron's Nagging Wife · 01-23-2002, 07:15 PM

I completely confused myself there (forgive me, I'm ill!) I was thinking that Elrond and Elwing were both half elven (and a very convoluted heritage their kids have, too)

I checked with my boyfriend who plays the twins in most of his RPs and he says that they hadn't chosen when LotR ended and decided to stay awhile. He's on a business trip, though, and he won't have access to his books for a few days.

Ã‘Ã³lendil · 01-23-2002, 07:16 PM

You mean Elrond and CelebrÃ*an?

Sauron's Nagging Wife · 01-23-2002, 07:24 PM

Ahhhh!

I meant Earendil and Elwing!

I'm going to bed (after midnight here) and will not be back.

Ã‘Ã³lendil · 01-23-2002, 07:28 PM

EÃ¤rendil and Elwing were both Half-elven. Or anyway Elwing was 33% Elven, not counting Maian blood. For her father (Dior) was a Half-elf, and her mother (Nimloth) was a full-blooded Elf.

Kiri · 01-23-2002, 09:15 PM

Why weren't Elros's children given the choice? But Elrond's were? Let us look at it from another point of view:

First, remember that the existence of spirits is verified and unquestioned on Middle Earth. It is the ultimate fate of the spirits of humans that is unknown.

The Gift of Men is that they are not enslaved to Arda. They are not chained thereupon, forced to never be able to go further afield, forced to stay around forever or to return and return and return and return, over and over and over and over and over again, never having true surcease, never having real rest.

When Elros chose freedom, chose liberty, he did so as a gift and blessing to his entire line. Elrond, on the other hand, shouldered the burden of immortality and the partial endless guardianship of Middle Earth that went with it.

Of course, when the reality of leaving to shores unknown even to the Valar, never with even the slightest chance of return stares one in the face, it can be a daunting choice--liberty is always a step into the abyss, which may be why so many people are willing to trade it away for the perception of security (cue patriotic music of choice).

Elrond's children preserved the choice because it was a POWER inherent in their possession of a human lineage. (Immortality from Elvish lineage wasn't the great power--mortality from human lineage was.) Once that power is exercised, then its benefits are permanent.

Findegil · 01-24-2002, 08:59 AM

Since thier had been some question where I found that Elladan and Elrohir had choosen to be mortal, I will give out my surce:
It is nowhere stated explicit. But the chioce of Arwen made clear in two texts: one is Appendix A of The Lord of the Ring of the second I am not sure in the moment but I think it's in the Unfinished Tales. In both here choice is discribed in nearly the same words. And it says that she should go with here father into the West or become mortal. Since she says to Aragorn before his daeth that their would be no ship to take here into the West althoght Legolas is sailing west only a few month later, I read this as "going physically together with him or die later". Assuming that the brothers had the same choise as Arwen (way should it be otherwise) and hearing of them after Elrond's departure it is clear that they choosed to be mortal, isn't it?

Regards
Findegil

Wayfarer · 01-24-2002, 03:59 PM

*Ahem*

Elros and Elrond were half elven.

Elros chose to be a mortal, and married a mortal, so his children were mortal.

Elrond chose to me Immortal, and married an Immortal, but his children were still considered 'half elven' to some extent. They had a choice.

Ã‘Ã³lendil · 01-24-2002, 04:16 PM

Thank you, Captain of the Obvious.

***Earniel*** · 01-24-2002, 04:19 PM

Funny that, I never knew Elrond's children had a choice. But I makes me wonder. If they had the choice to go West and stay immortal or to stay and eventually die, did other elves have that choice too?

Secondly, If Legolas sailed West after Aragorn died, why couldn't Arwen? What defines the the exact moment of change from immortal to mortal? It can't be the fact that there were no ships because Legolas had one and I believe Cirdan stayed to linger in Middle-Earth for a while so he could have built some. Anyone can help me out here?

Ã‘Ã³lendil · 01-24-2002, 05:14 PM

Arwen wasn't a full-blooded elf or anything. Tolkien considered Arwen, Elladan and Elrohir to be Half-elves, as their father was a Half-elf in blood.

Aragorn died in the 120th year of the Fourth Age. He reminds Arwen before he died that she can still choose to be immortal and sail into the West, but she disagrees, saying that there are no ships left and none walk in Rivendell. So CÃ*rdan and Celeborn and the last of the High Elves had left by that time.

Wayfarer · 01-24-2002, 06:10 PM

Welcome to Stating The Obvious, the show where we State The Obvious!

ragamuffin92 · 01-24-2002, 08:05 PM

I always understood that the decision "to Elf or not to Elf" was absolutely final, which is why it was taken very seriously. As I was typing this, I recalled how grieved Eldond was about Arwen's choice, because that meant he would never see Arwen again. He would go to the Blessed Realm, and she to wherever Eru sent the spirits of Men. I don't recall ever seeing a hint of "well, if you change your mind..." anywhere in Tolkien's writings on this topic.

Sauron's Nagging Wife · 01-25-2002, 12:15 PM

Regarding the twin sons of Elrond, here is the quote I had been talking about:

Quote:

Elrond passes Over Sea. The end of his sons, Elladan and ELrohir, is not told: they delay their choice, and remain for a while.

Letter 153
The Letters of JRR Tolkien

(I didn't find it, the Master of RP, Finrod the Faithful, found it for me.

)

Elvellyn · 02-04-2003, 05:54 PM

So... if Elladan or Elrohir had had children, would they have gotten to choose????

Sauron's Nagging Wife · 02-04-2003, 05:58 PM

Well, Arwen's children didn't get a choice, so I don't think theirs would.

01-23-2002, 05:19 AM	#1
Captain Stern Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 319	Why didn't Elros' children get the choice? All 3 of Elrond's children ( It was 3...right? ) seemed to have been given the choice, yet to my knowledge none of Elros' children were given the choice. It seems a little unfair to me Was it this way so as to tie 'loose ends'? The 3 Houses of Men had to get NÃºmenÃ³rÃ« up and running and maybe if Elros' children had been given the choice as to which kindred they wished to belong to it may have complicated things? ( especialy is they'd all chosen to belong to the 1st born ) Was there a diferent reason? __________________ Then hate overcame FÃ«anor's fear, and he cursed Melkor and bade him be gone, saying 'Get thee gone from my gate, thou jail-crow of Mandos!' And he shut the doors of his house in the face of the mightiest of all dwellers in EÃ¤.

01-23-2002, 06:04 PM	#3
Sauron's Nagging Wife Enting Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Great Tower of Mordor Posts: 68	I was under the impression that the twins, Elladan and Elrohir, hadn't yet made up their minds when their father went West and so they decided to stay in ME. Have you got a quote that says they chose to be mortal. Since Elrond's wife, Celeborn was also Half-elven, then their kids should have had a choice. Since Elros was already mortal, and his wife was mortal, why would their kids get a choice? __________________ "Will you stop fussing over that silly ring and come and eat your dinner before it gets cold?" ~Legrace, the Lady of the Great Tower Read about the Lady Legrace

01-23-2002, 07:15 PM	#6
Sauron's Nagging Wife Enting Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Great Tower of Mordor Posts: 68	I completely confused myself there (forgive me, I'm ill!) I was thinking that Elrond and Elwing were both half elven (and a very convoluted heritage their kids have, too) I checked with my boyfriend who plays the twins in most of his RPs and he says that they hadn't chosen when LotR ended and decided to stay awhile. He's on a business trip, though, and he won't have access to his books for a few days. __________________ "Will you stop fussing over that silly ring and come and eat your dinner before it gets cold?" ~Legrace, the Lady of the Great Tower Read about the Lady Legrace

01-23-2002, 07:16 PM	#7
Ã‘Ã³lendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	You mean Elrond and CelebrÃ*an? __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

01-23-2002, 07:24 PM	#8
Sauron's Nagging Wife Enting Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Great Tower of Mordor Posts: 68	Ahhhh! I meant Earendil and Elwing! I'm going to bed (after midnight here) and will not be back. __________________ "Will you stop fussing over that silly ring and come and eat your dinner before it gets cold?" ~Legrace, the Lady of the Great Tower Read about the Lady Legrace

01-23-2002, 09:48 AM	#2
Findegil Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Geilenkirchen, Germany Posts: 192	Where did you know from, that they hadn't have? Elrond's 3 children choosed all to become of mankind. So it might be that the children of Elros chose even more naturaly to be of mankind. Thinking of the choice of Elrond's children, which had to chose when Elrond left Middle-Earth, they had to chose when Elros laid down to die. And since Arwen, Elrohir and Elladan had only the choice to go with Elrond into the West or to become mortal, I would suggest that Elros' children could only chose to become mortal or to go into the West when their father died. So I wonder if we would know if one of them had chosen the elfkind and left Numenor. In addition their is a passage in the last manuscript of the Silmarillion where the Valar decided that all further Halfelven should become mortal. That didn't include Elrond's children but it might have included Elros' children since he marrige obviously a mortal woman. And at least it shows that the Valar were in favor of the choice for mankind, and may be the wise Halfelven folowed them in this. Regards Findegil

01-23-2002, 07:28 PM	#9
Ã‘Ã³lendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	EÃ¤rendil and Elwing were both Half-elven. Or anyway Elwing was 33% Elven, not counting Maian blood. For her father (Dior) was a Half-elf, and her mother (Nimloth) was a full-blooded Elf. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

01-23-2002, 09:15 PM	#10
Kiri Hobbit Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 42	Why weren't Elros's children given the choice? But Elrond's were? Let us look at it from another point of view: First, remember that the existence of spirits is verified and unquestioned on Middle Earth. It is the ultimate fate of the spirits of humans that is unknown. The Gift of Men is that they are not enslaved to Arda. They are not chained thereupon, forced to never be able to go further afield, forced to stay around forever or to return and return and return and return, over and over and over and over and over again, never having true surcease, never having real rest. When Elros chose freedom, chose liberty, he did so as a gift and blessing to his entire line. Elrond, on the other hand, shouldered the burden of immortality and the partial endless guardianship of Middle Earth that went with it. Of course, when the reality of leaving to shores unknown even to the Valar, never with even the slightest chance of return stares one in the face, it can be a daunting choice--liberty is always a step into the abyss, which may be why so many people are willing to trade it away for the perception of security (cue patriotic music of choice). Elrond's children preserved the choice because it was a POWER inherent in their possession of a human lineage. (Immortality from Elvish lineage wasn't the great power--mortality from human lineage was.) Once that power is exercised, then its benefits are permanent.

01-24-2002, 08:59 AM	#11
Findegil Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Geilenkirchen, Germany Posts: 192	Since thier had been some question where I found that Elladan and Elrohir had choosen to be mortal, I will give out my surce: It is nowhere stated explicit. But the chioce of Arwen made clear in two texts: one is Appendix A of The Lord of the Ring of the second I am not sure in the moment but I think it's in the Unfinished Tales. In both here choice is discribed in nearly the same words. And it says that she should go with here father into the West or become mortal. Since she says to Aragorn before his daeth that their would be no ship to take here into the West althoght Legolas is sailing west only a few month later, I read this as "going physically together with him or die later". Assuming that the brothers had the same choise as Arwen (way should it be otherwise) and hearing of them after Elrond's departure it is clear that they choosed to be mortal, isn't it? Regards Findegil

01-24-2002, 03:59 PM	#12
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Ahem Elros and Elrond were half elven. Elros chose to be a mortal, and married a mortal, so his children were mortal. Elrond chose to me Immortal, and married an Immortal, but his children were still considered 'half elven' to some extent. They had a choice. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

01-24-2002, 04:16 PM	#13
Ã‘Ã³lendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	Thank you, Captain of the Obvious. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

01-24-2002, 04:19 PM	#14
*Earniel* The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium) Posts: 14,363	Funny that, I never knew Elrond's children had a choice. But I makes me wonder. If they had the choice to go West and stay immortal or to stay and eventually die, did other elves have that choice too? Secondly, If Legolas sailed West after Aragorn died, why couldn't Arwen? What defines the the exact moment of change from immortal to mortal? It can't be the fact that there were no ships because Legolas had one and I believe Cirdan stayed to linger in Middle-Earth for a while so he could have built some. Anyone can help me out here?

01-24-2002, 05:14 PM	#15
Ã‘Ã³lendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	Arwen wasn't a full-blooded elf or anything. Tolkien considered Arwen, Elladan and Elrohir to be Half-elves, as their father was a Half-elf in blood. Aragorn died in the 120th year of the Fourth Age. He reminds Arwen before he died that she can still choose to be immortal and sail into the West, but she disagrees, saying that there are no ships left and none walk in Rivendell. So CÃ*rdan and Celeborn and the last of the High Elves had left by that time. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

01-24-2002, 06:10 PM	#16
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Welcome to Stating The Obvious, the show where we State The Obvious! __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

01-24-2002, 08:05 PM	#17
ragamuffin92 Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: New York State Posts: 309	to ESrniel I always understood that the decision "to Elf or not to Elf" was absolutely final, which is why it was taken very seriously. As I was typing this, I recalled how grieved Eldond was about Arwen's choice, because that meant he would never see Arwen again. He would go to the Blessed Realm, and she to wherever Eru sent the spirits of Men. I don't recall ever seeing a hint of "well, if you change your mind..." anywhere in Tolkien's writings on this topic. __________________ FRODO LIVES!! (sung to the tune of "My Boyfriend's Back") Now, Gandalf's back, and you're gonna be in trouble (Hey-la, hey-la---Now, Gandalf's back) Soon, Barad-dur is gonna be a pile of rubble (Hey-la, hey-la---Now, Gandalf's back)

02-04-2003, 05:54 PM	#19
Elvellyn The Redneck Elf Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: In a house Posts: 539	So... if Elladan or Elrohir had had children, would they have gotten to choose???? __________________ Oliphants make great pets.

02-04-2003, 05:58 PM	#20
Sauron's Nagging Wife Enting Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Great Tower of Mordor Posts: 68	Well, Arwen's children didn't get a choice, so I don't think theirs would. __________________ "Will you stop fussing over that silly ring and come and eat your dinner before it gets cold?" ~Legrace, the Lady of the Great Tower Read about the Lady Legrace

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