Do Balrogs have wings?

[Ulfsark]

So do they?

[Draken]

Oh no! The "balrog wings" question!

The last time this was asked it was virtual civil war in here...

Take cover everyone!

[The Gaffer]

I think it's time to reopen hostilities. It was before my time, anyway. Surely any wounds have healed since then?

The rule has to be that you have to declare your position, surely. None of this sitting on the fence.

They do. Because it says so.

Originally Posted by Bridge of Khazad-Thingmy

..its wings were spread from wall to wall.

In before lock.

[Ulfsark]

Well I originally made this to troll you guys but I'm glad your taking it seriously.

Basically I think it should canonically accepted that balrogs have vestigial wings. Although in reality Tolkien probably just forgot what he wanted balrogs to look like.

I'm too lazy to show evidence but basically what the Gaffer said plus the fact that flight would ave been useful to balrogs in many circumstances but it was never used.

I also did some calculations and very roughly I concluded that for flight each of the balrog's wings would have to be about approximately 4.5 times the length off his body.

However the topic is not whether balrogs fly but whether they have wings. So I say yes.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

They do. Because it says so.

In before lock.

No, it says, “like ... wings”. The “wings” are metaphors for the shadow.

Originally Posted by “Bridge of Khazad-dûm”

The Balrog reached the bridge. ... the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings.

It’s a very exciting passage, and it’s easy not to read the whole thing and get carried away by the author’s poetic speech.

Unlocked.

[Ulfsark]

So its shadow was spread from wall to wall? Well that's a rather pointless description because the size of a shadow is heavily dependent on the distance from the object to the source of light. A hobbits's shadow could have been from wall to wall.

[Galin]

Not mere shadow but Unlight. Not describing Balrogs here, but note...


'The Light failed; but the Darkness that followed was more than loss of light. In that hour was made a Darkness that seemed not lack but a thing with being of its own: for it was indeed made by malice out of Light, and it had power to pierce the eye, and to enter heart and mind, and strangle the very will.' Quenta Silmarillion

I think the balrog had something similar. One could call it a cloak of Unlight, or shadow, or cloak of darkness (that arguably could grown and reach out like wings might)...

'These were the the spirits who first adhered to him in the days of his splendour, and became most like him in his corruption: their hearts were of fire, but they were cloaked in darkness, and terror went before them; they had whips of flame. Balrogs they were named by the Noldor in later days.'

My opinion anyway.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

No, it says, “like ... wings”. The “wings” are metaphors for the shadow.It’s a very exciting passage, and it’s easy not to read the whole thing and get carried away by the author’s poetic speech.

That's very true! but Gaffer is quite right - two paragraphs down from where you quoted, it does indeed say exactly what the Gaffer quoted.

I, like you, thought it was only "like", but I kept reading, and our ol' Gaff was spot on!

Now the really volatile question is whether or not Elves have pointed ears ...

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

That's very true! but Gaffer is quite right - two paragraphs down from where you quoted, it does indeed say exactly what the Gaffer quoted.

Extended metaphor is still metaphor. That doesn’t mean it didn’t look like wings: indeed, I think it did! But it was darkness: not darkness blocking light, like a shadow, but actively evil darkness, malignant darkness: the Balrog was a demon.

[Rían]

hmm, I thought it was pretty clear - the first bit was the shadowy part where there is a wing-like effect (possibly even from the wings); the second bit, after the insult of denying him the bridge (when he was clearly only trying to cross to say hello to Frodo ) was the actual physical part as it "drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall..."

I think that's the more natural reading, but I suppose we differ - and hence the controversy!

(and of course we can bring in the earlier types of balrogs, too - those were weird! 0.o )

[Rían]

This is a nice little summary on Balrog wings that I hadn't seen before.

[Draken]

Yes, Balrogs have Wings.

Paul McCartney wouldn't pay the ransom.



Adapted from an original joke from the "Noddy Book of Jolly Japes" (c)1953. Explanation to anyone born after 1965 available upon request.

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Extended metaphor is still metaphor. That doesn’t mean it didn’t look like wings: indeed, I think it did! But it was darkness: not darkness blocking light, like a shadow, but actively evil darkness, malignant darkness: the Balrog was a demon.

Indeed it is. Although this one starts out as a simile and then, by your interpretation, morphs into metaphor.

The main reason why I think they actually do have wings in the story is that right throughout his writing, Tolkien uses simile as an initial introduction to something that turns out to be literally true. He does it, I think, to put you in the shoes of the character who is not really sure what is going on.

So, his usual MO is to start with a simile that morphs towards reality, i.e. in the opposite direction of metaphor.

Of course, I can't think any examples right now, but when I do I will post them.

Thanks for the link, will read that when I can be arsed.

[Earniel]

The funny thing is, that I don't really care if they've got wings or not.

The thing I have been mainly interested in, since seeing many of the depictions in the movie and elsewhere: is it actually said somewhere that they have horns?

[the insane one]

Im certain there was a thread on this a long time ago.

In FR on the Bridge it says its wings spread from wall to wall. Yet it still fell and didnt save its self, and got pushed of a mountain by gandalf.
Also later on Tolkien compares a nazgul to be like a balrog.

Thankfully you aks if a Balrog has wings, they most likely do, but there is no evidence to say that they can fly.

So basically a Balrog is just a penguin from a slightly warmer climate

[Taniquetil]

I'm really sorry, but this situation so cries out for a bad pun that I just can't help myself!

The time has come-the mooters said-to talk of many things
of unshod Hobbits, Aqualonde's ships,and the stars of Elbereth
of mallorn trees and elven kings
and why a Silmaril is burning hot and whether balrogs have wings

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa I feel better now

As to the debate, I have never imagined them with wings. Just before it speaks of "wings stretching from wall to wall" it says that the Balrog was " a shape of malice man-sized yet greater and a shadow as a dark cloud was about it" or something like that. Also, due to the fact that Ecthelion was able to pierce Gothmog's heart with his helmet I would say that Gothmog couldn't have been horribly taller than him and Gothmog was the greatest of Balrogs!
It simply makes no sense for a mannish sized creature to have physical wings that would fill a huge cavern. But it makes perfect sense if JRRT is referring to to that shadow or "malicious unlight" that was around the Balrog. In other words, the Balrog could change the shape of it's dark-cloud, but not itself. And above all there's the obvious fact that they can't fly. I could come up with more reasons, but this is all that I feel like typing right now.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by the insane one

So basically a Balrog is just a penguin from a slightly warmer climate

I thank you for the mental image that sentence provided.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Taniquetil

The time has come-the mooters said-to talk of many things
of unshod Hobbits, Aqualonde's ships,and the stars of Elbereth
of mallorn trees and elven kings
and why a Silmaril is burning hot and whether balrogs have wings

They have fuzzy slippers!

[feawen]

i always thought of the balrogs taking on the shape of night mares. i thought of it as a devil like creature that could take on a shape of fear and big huge wings are scary. if a devil is the opposite of a heavenly being is a balrog the opposite of a maya (sorry i cant spell that word right!)?
so if the balrog is trying to get scary to the hobbits it would be a huge scary winged firey black scary thing! anyway thats my take on things. wings are scary so i think the bolrogs have wings! maybe the wings was just a design feature like plastic flowers, no real use but looks ok on your window if your into that kinda thing!

[Lefty Scaevola]

Here is a link to an easy on Balrog wings and 12 passages of text that bear on the subject.

http://tolkien.slimy.com/essays/TAB6.html

Pick it the way you want, reasonable text analysis could go either way for the later/published balrogs, although earlier/unplublished versions were somewhat more clearly not flyers.