How big were Balrogs? And what did they look like?

[Gil-Galad 2.0]

Well, does anyone know? I'm pretty shure they were not intended to look like they did in the movie. I thought they were more human like and closer in size than in the movies. In the Fellowshilp of the ring I thought it said that its wings spread from wall to wall, but I was not shure if it said it looked like wings or they actually were physical wings. If anyone has a quote please post it.

Gil-Galad 2.0

[durinsbane2244]

well, i'm about 5'7", brown hair, and-oh...sorry...

[orithil]

Well they were bigger then ungoliant because in the silmarillion JRR tolkein said when ungoliant trapped melkor the balrogs came and fought off ungoliant so i would say they would be relativly big.

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by orithil

Well they were bigger then ungoliant because in the silmarillion JRR tolkein said when ungoliant trapped melkor the balrogs came and fought off ungoliant so i would say they would be relativly big.

Certainly not bigger than ungoliant, especially after she consumed the fluid of the trees. There was just many of them with their flaming wips and remember morgoth was there as well.

I always thought they were bigger than man size, more like a troll with flaming wings and maia power.

Definately not as big as in the movies.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Yeah. If someone with a flaming whip came after me, I'd skeedaddle, even if he was shorter!

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by durinsbane2244

well, i'm about 5'7", brown hair, and-oh...sorry...

damn ... iwas gonna say ask BIG Bal

[durinsbane2244]

ha! hm...you, sir, (referring not to BB but to poster), are certainly interested in my kind!

[GreyMouser]

Balrogs...wings....AAAHHHH!!!! (flees , screaming)

[Ellf]

Well, I agree with Telcontarion. I do recall reading in the LOTR about "the moria" balrog being a "dark form, of man shape maybe, yet greater". It doesn't say they were the size of a standing 18 wheeler. And also I recall Feanor being surrounded by many of them in the Silmarillion. Feanor fought long and hard. Could you imagine Feanor (man size) getting jumped by a handfull of these "movie" balrogs, being the size of 18 wheelers. What about Glorfindel wrestling with one of these monsters after the sack of Gondolin? I doubt balrogs were meant to be of the movie size.

By the way, balrogs did not have wings. In the LOTR it reads "and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings." It doesn't say they had wings. Key word shadow.

[Alcuin]

Letter 246 says,

Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic.

After his first “unhousing� in the Akallabêth, Appendix A says of Sauron

He was unable ever again to assume a form that seemed fair to men, but became black and hideous, and his power thereafter was through terror alone.

Compare those to the description of the Balrog:

it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and to go before it.

Isildur in his scroll that Gandalf found in Minas Tirith and recounted to the Council of Elrond wrote

The Ring misseth, maybe, the heat of Sauron's hand, which was black and yet burned like fire, and so Gil-galad was destroyed

The appearance of Sauron sounds very like the appearance of the balrogs, I believe: it was perhaps the only form that he could assume, that of a “flame of Udûn,� which he certainly was: as the Ainulindalë says,

of the Maiar many were drawn to [Morgoth’s] splendor in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness… Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror.

…of his servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel.

I presume that once Sauron could no longer “assume many forms, and for long if he willed he could still appear noble and beautiful, so as to deceive all but the most wary� (Silmarillion, “Of the Rings of Power…�), he appeared very much as did the balrogs, who were also fallen Maiar, and his fiendish form was one sign of their kinship both in origin and corrupted nature.

I think that we can use Tolkien’s descriptions of Sauron in the Third Age as a means to understanding how the other Umaiar looked.

(While Gollum was imprisoned in Mordor, he was tortured and questioned by Sauron himself. Gollum reported that he was missing a finger: “He has only four on the Black Hand…�)

Originally Posted by Ellf

By the way, balrogs did not have wings. In the LOTR it reads "and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings." It doesn't say they had wings. Key word shadow.

Gagh! Another balrog-wing debate! They are Schrödinger’s Balrogs: they both have wings and do not have wings until they are observed. After that, the balrog-wing-wave collapses, an observer sees either the balrog with wings or without them with a probability of between 7:3 and 3:1. (They are also very useful for killing cats inside boxes.)

[Landroval]

Originally Posted by Ellf

By the way, balrogs did not have wings. In the LOTR it reads "and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings." It doesn't say they had wings. Key word shadow.

Here is another use of "like wings" in relation to a winged being - an eagle:

Originally Posted by In the house of Tom Bombadil

Suddenly a shadow, like the shape of great wings, passed across the moon. The figure lifted his arms and a light flashed from the staff that he wielded. A mighty eagle swept down and bore him away

Moreover, to the balgy in question (this I hardly saw debated):

Originally Posted by Durin's folk, RotK

Thus they roused from sleep [Or released from prison; it may well be that it had already been awakened by the malice of Sauron.] a thing of terror that, flying from Thangorodrim, had lain hidden at the foundations of the earth since the coming of the Host of the West: a Balrog of Morgoth

How about it?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Well, Superman flies, and he doesn't have wings. But more importantly, the context makes me think it means "fleeing" more than "taking flight".

[Landroval]

Well, Superman flies, and he doesn't have wings.

False comparison; as far as I know, all the beings that fly (in Ea) have wings.

context makes me think it means "fleeing" more than "taking flight"

I am curious, what sort of quote _would_ convince you??
To return to a previous point:

Originally Posted by Ellf

By the way, balrogs did not have wings. In the LOTR it reads "and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings." It doesn't say they had wings. Key word shadow.

Tolkien also introduces the word shadow through a simile:

Originally Posted by The bridge of Khazad-dum

what it was could not be seen: it was LIKE a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe yet greater

if we apply your reasoning, that an element introduced by a simile doesn't actually exist, then it implies that there was no shadow, and if it wasn't, then it couldn't have stretched out like two wings - which contradicts the text

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

The appearance of Sauron sounds very like the appearance of the balrogs, I believe: it was perhaps the only form that he could assume, that of a “flame of Udûn,� which he certainly was: as the Ainulindalë says,

Actually the Ainulindalë did not say he was one of the valaraukar, in the valaquenta it said he was one of the people of Aule, and that "He was great in the lore of that people." He was a maker, that at least is obvious.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by The Telcontarion

Actually the Ainulindalë did not say he was one of the valaraukar, in the valaquenta it said he was one of the people of Aule, and that "He was great in the lore of that people." He was a maker, that at least is obvious.

Right. If you look, I didn’t say that Sauron was one of the valaraukar, a balrog, either. I said that I think he took on a form that was similar to that of the balrogs after his first physical form was destroyed in the Akallabêth, the wreck of Númenor. I think that’s because he was unable to “appear noble and beautiful,� and I think that his similar appearance to balrogs was one sign of their kinship both in origin and corrupted nature.

By the way, Saruman was also of the of the folk of Aulë, and he was also a maker, though not, perhaps, as great as Sauron; at least, not in the form he appeared in Middle-earth. (For “being embodied the Istari had needs to learn much anew by slow experience, and though they knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off…� Unfinished Tales, “The Istari�) The passage from Morgoth’s Ring that I cited earlier continues, saying that

Sauron had, in fact, been very like Saruman, and so still understood him quickly and could guess what he would be likely to do, even without the aid of the palantÃ*ri or of spies…

But that does not address the issue of how Sauron looked after his fall, much less how the balrogs appeared.

I think that Sauron took on a shape that sounds remarkably like the descriptions we have of balrogs after “the bodily form in which he long had walked perished.� (RotK, “Appendix A�) The thread is about how balrogs looked, and I think we can use Tolkien’s more numerous descriptions of Sauron’s appearance to understand better how he envisioned the balrogs.

[The Telcontarion]

Well I do agree that in appearence he he looked similar, not exactly so.

[Tulkas]

Originally Posted by The Telcontarion

Certainly not bigger than ungoliant, especially after she consumed the fluid of the trees. There was just many of them with their flaming wips and remember morgoth was there as well.

I always thought they were bigger than man size, more like a troll with flaming wings and maia power.

Definately not as big as in the movies.

only 7 barlogs came to rescue morgoth and from what the book says ungoliant was enormous. so i would have to say the barlogs were probably bigger than humans and elves but maybe just a little smaller than it appeared in the fellowship.

[Landroval]

only 7 barlogs came to rescue morgoth

Though the number of balrogs decreased from thousands to less than ten, there is no mentioning that I know of concerning the number that came to rescue Melkor.

[Tulkas]

Originally Posted by Landroval

Though the number of balrogs decreased from thousands to less than ten, there is no mentioning that I know of concerning the number that came to rescue Melkor.

im almost positive it says 7 came to rescue Morgoth from Ungoliant. Ill check it out.

[Valarauko5]

Wow. This thread seems to have died. I might just try and put this to rest though. I've looked at a lot of sites, and I've read the areas in the Sil and the Fellowship. I agree with some people that, from a purely reading/enjoyment standpoint, it only really matters what you want them to look like. But in essence, the Sil says that the Maia also had the power to change form at will. Since a Valarauco is a Maia, it seems that as it says in the Fellowship "It drew itself up to a great height....it's wings were spread from wall to wall" that they could stay man size if need be, but being Maia, could also become larger and more terrible. And thus could also have wings if necessary. In answer to the common problem of "well how did it fall from the bridge then if it could fly" well, if I could change shape I think it would take a good chunk of power and some time. The things sword, which it would seem is created by it's power of flame, was thrown up in shards and it seems Gandalf prevented it from somehow getting another. Thus the Valarauco had neither time nor power to spare. Does this seem reasonable to you guys? Please tell me what you think.