balrogs

den · 07-25-2003, 09:51 AM

A question about balrogs... I don't have the books here, so bear with me. In LoTR, I got the impression that the Balrog had immense power. Gandalf went to face him alone, and being a Maia, the thought of him worried would give that impression. And also the company was told that they couldn't face it. The balrog being Durin's bane assumes that it was powerful enough to bring down the dwarves.

In the Sil, I recall parts where it says hosts of balrogs issued forth from Angband, and the eldar win those battles. Did the balrogs get more powerful for LoTR, or were the elves just that powerful? I'm just a little confused. In one it seems as if balrogs are super powerful, then the other it seems as if an army of elves can stop an army of balrogs. Any thoughts on this?

Lalaith · 07-25-2003, 09:54 AM

I'd say it is depending on the situation. In the first age there was war and all. Elves against Morgoth. And there was a whole army of Men and Elves fighting the powerfull Balrogs. And I think they defeated the Balrogs with a huge amount of fallen Men and Elves. So it was a high price.

And in the third age the Elves were not that powerful and that many than they had been in the first age. They have gotten weaker and weaker.
Plus: in Moria they were only 9 persons and how could 2 men, 1 dwarf, 1 elf and 4 hobbits defeat a Balrog?

Radagast The Brown · 07-25-2003, 10:01 AM

Also, there weren't many balrogs. The army of Morgoth was mainly of orcs and men. The balrogs were the leaders. And, you can find places where the balrogs were strong, as when Gothmog killed Feanor.

The dwarves didn't run away from the balrog only, there was an army of orcs with him.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 07-25-2003, 12:07 PM

Moving to the Middle-earth forum.

Lefty Scaevola · 07-25-2003, 03:10 PM

The Noldar fresh out of Valinot had much greater power than other elves. Fingolfin fought morgoth and wounded him 8 times.

Note that the numbers of balrogs is not metion in the Sil. The stories there were adapt in part from BoLT where there were lots of Balrogs of much less power. JRRT never finished rewriting the SIL, but the Balrogs were being adapted to the one in the published LoTR, who was much greater than those in the BoLT, and were being reduced in number to a total of 7. The most powerfal Nolder in the first age could still stand toe to toe with them, if one on one.

Inderjit Sanghera · 07-30-2003, 01:38 PM

C.T should have edited the Published Silmarillion to conform with the '7 Balrog' theory given in Tolkien's letters. One can conclude from reading the texts Chris Tolkien used to make the Published Silmarillion (Grey Annals , Annals of Aman)
that hordes of Balrogs were envisioned by Tolkien at that time. (i.e in the Annals of Aman a host of Balrogs, Melkor’s last weapon are said to attack Manwe's banner.)

Even in the writing of LoTR, the Balrogs aren't as powerful as they later became. Undoubtley Tolkien borrowed these creatures from the Fall of Gondolin where there were many Balrogs, and many were slain, whereas we only get a record of three Balrog slayings EVER there were dozens then. In fact in the drafts to LoTR Legolas at one point exclaims the BalrogS are upon us. So they weren’t as mighty as they later became or Tolkien first envisioned.

Lanelf · 08-04-2003, 11:52 PM

I got the impression that the first-age Balrogs were only defeated through superior numbers and weapons. I was a bit confused, though, at Gandalf's reaction - he's a Maia, and Balrogs were made from Maia, so why should Gandalf be worried???
Lanelf.

Arien the Maia · 08-05-2003, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lanelf
I got the impression that the first-age Balrogs were only defeated through superior numbers and weapons. I was a bit confused, though, at Gandalf's reaction - he's a Maia, and Balrogs were made from Maia, so why should Gandalf be worried???
Lanelf.

because Gandalf was in the form of a Man...they were forbidden by the Valar to use their "Maiar" powers so as to let Men and Elves decide for themselves if they wanted to fight on the good or the bad side

Lefty Scaevola · 08-05-2003, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lanelf
I was a bit confused, though, at Gandalf's reaction - he's a Maia, and Balrogs were made from Maia, so why should Gandalf be worried???Lanelf.

The balrogs physical incarnation was speicalized for combat and terror, Olorin's incarnation was designed for other purposes, uderstanding, courage, inspiration, counseling.

den · 08-05-2003, 10:34 AM

I was just under the impression that physical weapons (ie swords) couldn't hurt the balrogs. That's what I got from lotr. In the Sil, it seems they can. So what you are saying then is that if the armies of gondor and rohan were present they could bring down that balrog?

In that case, why couldn't Durin's crew? Or the orcs & troll?

Sheeana · 08-05-2003, 05:30 PM

The Sil is based on Tolkien's older mythos of Balrogs. In the Sil they're weaker than the Balrog developed in LOTR, IMO.

Lanelf · 08-05-2003, 06:05 PM

Aaaah, now I get it. Thanks, Arien and Lefty!
Lanelf.

Hans Moleman · 08-08-2003, 08:25 AM

Are balrogs linked to elves in some way?

Lefty Scaevola · 08-08-2003, 09:16 AM

They are Ainur that followed Melkor/Morgoth. Their link to evles was that the Eldar were enimies of Morgoth and therefore were their enimies. Some were killed in battle/duels with the most powerful of the Noldor. Two we know of durring the attack on Gondolin: Gothmog Lord of Balrogs k Killed by Ecthelion (Master of the Fountain, a warrior guild of the City of Gondolin) and one by Glorfindal (Master of the House of the Golden Flower).If JRRT had completed his rewrite of the SIL, particularly of the Fall of Gondolin, and with the host of the less pwerful Balrogs of BoLT being reduce to the 7 super Balrogs of the SIL/LoTR, is is likely there would have been 4 of them killed at Gondolin, since in addition to the expoilts of the two captains above, the Bolt Tales have balrogs being whipped up on by members of two other warrior houses. That would have left 3 Balrogs, one for Moria, and 2 to buy the farm in the War of Wrath at the end of the First age.

Arien the Maia · 08-08-2003, 09:26 AM

If Balrogs are Maiar, how can they die? do their spirits just sort of "roam" the Earth until the end like Sauron? I mean everything but Men was kept within the confines of the world right? Wel except for Melkor, but only b/c he was thrust through into the Void by the Valar b/c he was naughty

Lefty Scaevola · 08-08-2003, 02:18 PM

They become disembodied like other Aunur that have invested much of thenselves into an incarnation for power, and have lost that body. It seems to cost them more of their limited existance to make a form that wields great force, magic, or other powers with physical effect. Most of the 'good' mair tend to adopt forms for talking, couseling, and persuation, and of course try not to get killed and disperse the energy they have invested. Before Melkor's SPIRIT was thrust into the void, the Valar obliterated his last body to disperse much of his remaining power.

Arien the Maia · 08-08-2003, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
They become disembodied like other Aunur that have invested much of thenselves into an incanatyion for poser, and have lost that body. It seems to cost them more of their limited existance to make a form that wiled great force, magic, or other powers with physical effect. Most of the 'good' mair tend to adopt forms for talking, couseling, and persuation, and of course try not to get killed and disperse the enery they have invested. Before Melkor's SPRIT was thrust into the void, the Valar obliterated his last body to disperse much of his remaining power.

ah yes, I remember reading this somewhere in the HoME series..thanks

Ainaromenel · 10-21-2003, 12:03 AM

I believe that the Barlogs were originally a type of Maiar that were called spirit of fire. I believe this because Arien, who would guide the Sun, was called this, and it is also described that she was "not decieved nor drawn to his service". So, I think Barlogs were, and thus became Demons of Might and fire. It seems to me that there were many Barlogs, not just seven, though I haven't read HofME, so I don't know.

Attalus · 10-21-2003, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by den
I was just under the impression that physical weapons (ie swords) couldn't hurt the balrogs. That's what I got from lotr. In the Sil, it seems they can. So what you are saying then is that if the armies of gondor and rohan were present they could bring down that balrog?

In that case, why couldn't Durin's crew? Or the orcs & troll?

Swords definitely can hurt them. Glamdring was what Gandalf was hewing at Durin's Bane with, though I got the impression that it was lightning that finally killed it.

matthew · 10-30-2003, 11:47 AM

Lightening? Where did you get that impression?

07-25-2003, 09:51 AM	#1
den Sapling Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 10	balrogs A question about balrogs... I don't have the books here, so bear with me. In LoTR, I got the impression that the Balrog had immense power. Gandalf went to face him alone, and being a Maia, the thought of him worried would give that impression. And also the company was told that they couldn't face it. The balrog being Durin's bane assumes that it was powerful enough to bring down the dwarves. In the Sil, I recall parts where it says hosts of balrogs issued forth from Angband, and the eldar win those battles. Did the balrogs get more powerful for LoTR, or were the elves just that powerful? I'm just a little confused. In one it seems as if balrogs are super powerful, then the other it seems as if an army of elves can stop an army of balrogs. Any thoughts on this?

07-25-2003, 09:54 AM	#2
Lalaith The Elvish Temptress Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Vienna, Austria Posts: 3,055	I'd say it is depending on the situation. In the first age there was war and all. Elves against Morgoth. And there was a whole army of Men and Elves fighting the powerfull Balrogs. And I think they defeated the Balrogs with a huge amount of fallen Men and Elves. So it was a high price. And in the third age the Elves were not that powerful and that many than they had been in the first age. They have gotten weaker and weaker. Plus: in Moria they were only 9 persons and how could 2 men, 1 dwarf, 1 elf and 4 hobbits defeat a Balrog? __________________ What I am and what I would are as secret as maidenhead.

07-25-2003, 10:01 AM	#3
Radagast The Brown Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Israel Posts: 6,975	Also, there weren't many balrogs. The army of Morgoth was mainly of orcs and men. The balrogs were the leaders. And, you can find places where the balrogs were strong, as when Gothmog killed Feanor. The dwarves didn't run away from the balrog only, there was an army of orcs with him. __________________ Lalala... poof! AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

07-25-2003, 12:07 PM	#4
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	Moving to the Middle-earth forum. __________________ "Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

07-25-2003, 03:10 PM	#5
Lefty Scaevola AngAdan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boerne, Texas Posts: 856	The Noldar fresh out of Valinot had much greater power than other elves. Fingolfin fought morgoth and wounded him 8 times. Note that the numbers of balrogs is not metion in the Sil. The stories there were adapt in part from BoLT where there were lots of Balrogs of much less power. JRRT never finished rewriting the SIL, but the Balrogs were being adapted to the one in the published LoTR, who was much greater than those in the BoLT, and were being reduced in number to a total of 7. The most powerfal Nolder in the first age could still stand toe to toe with them, if one on one. __________________ Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me,"

07-30-2003, 01:38 PM	#6
Inderjit Sanghera Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wolverhampton, England. Posts: 260	C.T should have edited the Published Silmarillion to conform with the '7 Balrog' theory given in Tolkien's letters. One can conclude from reading the texts Chris Tolkien used to make the Published Silmarillion (Grey Annals , Annals of Aman) that hordes of Balrogs were envisioned by Tolkien at that time. (i.e in the Annals of Aman a host of Balrogs, Melkor’s last weapon are said to attack Manwe's banner.) Even in the writing of LoTR, the Balrogs aren't as powerful as they later became. Undoubtley Tolkien borrowed these creatures from the Fall of Gondolin where there were many Balrogs, and many were slain, whereas we only get a record of three Balrog slayings EVER there were dozens then. In fact in the drafts to LoTR Legolas at one point exclaims the BalrogS are upon us. So they weren’t as mighty as they later became or Tolkien first envisioned.

08-04-2003, 11:52 PM	#7
Lanelf Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: The Second Drawer Down Posts: 407	I got the impression that the first-age Balrogs were only defeated through superior numbers and weapons. I was a bit confused, though, at Gandalf's reaction - he's a Maia, and Balrogs were made from Maia, so why should Gandalf be worried??? Lanelf. __________________ Hey, I'm back! resounding silence You didn't even notice I was gone, did you? Well, I'm back now anyway. Artemis Fowl must find Mulch Diggums! You'll never shut down the real Napster

08-05-2003, 10:34 AM	#10
den Sapling Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 10	I was just under the impression that physical weapons (ie swords) couldn't hurt the balrogs. That's what I got from lotr. In the Sil, it seems they can. So what you are saying then is that if the armies of gondor and rohan were present they could bring down that balrog? In that case, why couldn't Durin's crew? Or the orcs & troll?

08-05-2003, 05:30 PM	#11
Sheeana Lord of the Pants Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 1,382	The Sil is based on Tolkien's older mythos of Balrogs. In the Sil they're weaker than the Balrog developed in LOTR, IMO.

08-05-2003, 06:05 PM	#12
Lanelf Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: The Second Drawer Down Posts: 407	Aaaah, now I get it. Thanks, Arien and Lefty! Lanelf. __________________ Hey, I'm back! resounding silence You didn't even notice I was gone, did you? Well, I'm back now anyway. Artemis Fowl must find Mulch Diggums! You'll never shut down the real Napster

08-08-2003, 08:25 AM	#13
Hans Moleman Hobbit Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 41	Are balrogs linked to elves in some way? __________________ Oh you look like the little T.V leprocan i will be looking forward to getting your lucky charms. "Ahh my brain"

08-08-2003, 09:16 AM	#14
Lefty Scaevola AngAdan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boerne, Texas Posts: 856	They are Ainur that followed Melkor/Morgoth. Their link to evles was that the Eldar were enimies of Morgoth and therefore were their enimies. Some were killed in battle/duels with the most powerful of the Noldor. Two we know of durring the attack on Gondolin: Gothmog Lord of Balrogs k Killed by Ecthelion (Master of the Fountain, a warrior guild of the City of Gondolin) and one by Glorfindal (Master of the House of the Golden Flower).If JRRT had completed his rewrite of the SIL, particularly of the Fall of Gondolin, and with the host of the less pwerful Balrogs of BoLT being reduce to the 7 super Balrogs of the SIL/LoTR, is is likely there would have been 4 of them killed at Gondolin, since in addition to the expoilts of the two captains above, the Bolt Tales have balrogs being whipped up on by members of two other warrior houses. That would have left 3 Balrogs, one for Moria, and 2 to buy the farm in the War of Wrath at the end of the First age.

08-08-2003, 09:26 AM	#15
Arien the Maia Fëanáro's Fire Mistress Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Indiana, USA Posts: 1,423	If Balrogs are Maiar, how can they die? do their spirits just sort of "roam" the Earth until the end like Sauron? I mean everything but Men was kept within the confines of the world right? Wel except for Melkor, but only b/c he was thrust through into the Void by the Valar b/c he was naughty

08-08-2003, 02:18 PM	#16
Lefty Scaevola AngAdan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boerne, Texas Posts: 856	They become disembodied like other Aunur that have invested much of thenselves into an incarnation for power, and have lost that body. It seems to cost them more of their limited existance to make a form that wields great force, magic, or other powers with physical effect. Most of the 'good' mair tend to adopt forms for talking, couseling, and persuation, and of course try not to get killed and disperse the energy they have invested. Before Melkor's SPIRIT was thrust into the void, the Valar obliterated his last body to disperse much of his remaining power. Last edited by Lefty Scaevola : 08-09-2003 at 10:26 AM.

10-21-2003, 12:03 AM	#18
Ainaromenel Hobbit Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 15	I believe that the Barlogs were originally a type of Maiar that were called spirit of fire. I believe this because Arien, who would guide the Sun, was called this, and it is also described that she was "not decieved nor drawn to his service". So, I think Barlogs were, and thus became Demons of Might and fire. It seems to me that there were many Barlogs, not just seven, though I haven't read HofME, so I don't know. __________________ Ainaromel: "Holy" + ""Sunrise" + "Star" "Holy Morning Star" Jesus Christ my Savior

10-30-2003, 11:47 AM	#20
matthew Enting Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 75	Lightening? Where did you get that impression? __________________ Nai anar caluva tierelyanna Flame me. Go ahead. Matthew in 2028. One by one we're bringing them back. Vote Nader. Stop the hamster eaters!!!! End global warming! Turn on the AC!!! Gadzooks! Run!

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