Death of the Witch King.

[ringbearer]

The chief of the Wringwraiths at the Battle of the Pelenor fields said that no "man" could defeat him...then Eowyn and Merry defeated him. Was it really because they were "woman and hobbit"? Was it something to do with their weapons? Could a dwarf or elf defeat him...because they were "not men"?

[Darth Tater]

It's probably the only example of a plot twist by Tolkien that is just plain corny. Eowyn and Merry killed him because they are woman and hobbit.

[bombcar]

This is the use of a very standard device in tales (see Shakespear's MacBeth). It is the Prophecy of Doom TM. Something like, "No man will ever kill you," which makes you feel real special, and then you get whipped by your little sister.

It's similar to the prophecy by Frodo on the steps of Mount Doom:

Then suddenly, as before under the eaves of the Emyn Muil, Sam saw these two rivals with other vision. A crouching shape, scarcely more than the shadow of a living thing, a creature now wholly ruined and defeated, yet filled with a hideous lust and rage; and before it stood stern, untouchable now by pity, a figure robed in white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire. Out of the fire there spoke a commanding voice. 'Begone, and trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom.'

And the prophecy was true, but not the way either Frodo or Gollum would have wished it.

The most famous example of this is Shakespear's witches in MacBeth, who tell him that he will not be harmed by Man born of Woman, and then MacDuff informs him that he was delivered by C-Section.!!!

[Ñólendil]

It was fate. Glorfindel foretold that if he was going to die, it wouldn't be by the hands of a man. Merry was certainly able to hurt him because he had a blade of Westernesse (after a fashion), laden with spells for the Witchking's demise. It broke what spell of power that was about him, thus enabling him to be killed by anyone who could. But he wouldn't be killed, if at all, by anyone but a woman, considering the situation: Éowen. Perhaps it wasn't so specific, perhaps it was definitely 'by anyone but someone who was not a man'. Lower case 'm'. Would Gandalf apply? He was definitely male, visually a man, and even as a spirit a male, but not a Man, not human. Glorfindel apparently meant both or either, either not a Man, or not a man. Perhaps he didn't know which. For Merry was a man, but a Hobbit. While Éowen was a Man (a human being) but a woman.* Anyway had Gandalf set out to battle him, I don't think he would have accomplished what Éowen did without a weapon specifically made for the purpose.

I don't see what is corny about it. Glorfindel foresaw that the slayer (if there was going to be one) of the Witchking was not a man. So he said something along the lines of 'No man will slay him' (I'd have to look it up) and it became famous. Sure enough, Éowen comes along and achieves it, with the help of a Hobbit. I don't think that's corny.

*Yet to make it more confusing, Tolkien said more than once in letters that Hobbits are a diminutive Race of Man! I guess for the situation, they were far removed enough from their origins as not to be considered 'human'.

Edited: I just realized I spelled Éowyn's name wrong throughout.

[Erewe]

I don't think it's corny at all! It's my second favorite moment in Tolkien (the first being when Frodo and Gollum make the pact on the Ring). Though I'd say that it wouldn't matter if Hobbits were a form of man, because Merry didn't *kill* the Witch King, just wounded him.

--Erewë

PS- The exact words were "Man of woman born". Sorry, it's my favorite Shakespeare play and the fact that my Jr. High School Drama Club did it a few years back makes me a bit prejudice for it.

[Erewe]

Yay! I'm an enting! 50 posts! Next stop: 100

--Erewë

[morkhon]

I used to be an Elven Warrior before the move, oddly enough I actually post more now, than I used too.

[Finduilas]

Actually it does not say that the Witch-King was killed. I recall reading in the Fellowship that you could not kill one of the Nazgul that easily as the power of their rings sustained them.

[Finmandos12]

His body was destroyed then, but he really "died" when the One Ring was destroyed.

I don't know about that, there's some interesting choices of words in the passages dealing with his 'death'.

[Gandalf]

It is basically a sort of pun used by Tolkien. I found it quite humorous. Commonly the word "man" is used as in "human" (and human -- according to Tolkien -- includes hobbits), but here it didn't. I liked it

[fatclown]

yes.

[ringbearer]

no. (heh-heh) I don't think hobbits were considered "human".
I believe "human" refers to "man".

[Snowdog]

Originally Posted by Ñólendil

Glorfindel foresaw that the slayer (if there was going to be one) of the Witchking was not a man. So he said something along the lines of 'No man will slay him' (I'd have to look it up) and it became famous. Sure enough, Éowyn's comes along and achieves it, with the help of a Hobbit.

That sums it up perfectly! I loved the way Éowyn got to do a most credible part in achieving victory, with the help of Merry of course. Still, she wanted death.

[Wilhelm]

Here are Glorfindel's words

"Do not pursue him! He will not return to this land. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall."

These words were spoken to prevent Earnur from chasing the Witch-king after the battle of Fornost (a warning that worked for about 75 years...). You kind of wonder if Glorfindel was trying to be prophetic or if it was simply that he didn't want Earnur to die so foolishly after defeating the forces of Angmar. I'm not sure it matters if foretelling was intended as either way, the words certainly became prophecy.

The original question was

Was it really because they were "woman and hobbit"? Was it something to do with their weapons? Could a dwarf or elf defeat him...because they were "not men"?

The prophecy did not protect the witch-king from anyone. It was simply one guys idea of how the Lord of the Nazgul might fall. The difficulty in killing him came from his own abilities and a ring of power. In a mortals hands the sword of Westernesse was probably key to beating him as it was forged to break the spell that held him together. Without specially made weapons it would probably take an elf-lord (like Glorfindel) or an Istari like Gandalf to stand against the witch-king.

The Nazgul's primary weapon is fear. Beings that had seen the undying lands, like elf-lords or Istari, do not fear the Nazgul and therefore would have a better chance of beating him. This may have been what Glorfindel meant by his words. Consider this passage from Many Meetings (Frodo is Convalescing in Rivendell)

In Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power.

Glorfindel would clearly know this. Given that knowledge it would seem to make sense that Glorfindel's prophecy might be based on the fact that you are more likely to beat someone if you're not afraid of them. Glorfindel may have been expecting someone who had been to the undying lands to defeat the witch king. I don't think it was meant as a gender/race thing - It is, however, a cool twist that it turns out that way.

[GrayMouser]

I think it was a prophecy, meant as one of those old-time ironic sayings so popular with oracles, as when King Croesus asked the Oracle of Delphi about making war on Persia and got the reply "if Croesus goes to war he will destroy a great empire"- he did, his own.

So yea, it was a play on words on the double meaning of man- either "male " or "human".

[Galin]

GrayMouser wrote: So yea, it was a play on words on the double meaning of man- either "male " or "human".

I agree. I note the obvious too: the words 'Man' and 'man' can be distinguished in writing, but Glorfindel's translated prophecy (not originally in English of course) was spoken by the Elf, not written.

And both Eowyn and Merry are included within the story as fulfilling the prophecy, as the Rohirrim (internal characters) include both -- in the book, Merry was said to be 'also' not a Man (according to the footnote in Appendix A concerning Eowyn and the Witch-king), which means to me that the scops of the Rohirrim understand and echo the play on words...

... which surely Tolkien himself was not unaware of