gandalf or the witch king

[orithil]

sorry guys i dont know if this ones been brought up before but who would win if those two actually had a show down in the book gandalf was not sure if he could beat the witch king but all the same he was going to chase him out onto pellanor fields before he had to go save faramier so who would win ????

[jammi567]

probally gandaf, as he's the more powerful, wepons-can't-hurt-me-now miar, rarther then the bound-to-a-ring nazgul.

[Landroval]

Gandalf the Grey kicked around all the the nazguls at the Wheatertop; though both Gandalf and the wiki are enhanced at the time of the Pellenor fields, my bet is on the white rider - all the way.

[Gordis]

'I galloped to Weathertop like a gale, and I reached it before sundown on my second day from Bree-and they were there before me. They drew away from me, for they felt the coming of my anger and they dared not face it while the Sun was in the sky. But they closed round at night, and I was besieged on the hill-top, in the old ring of Amon Sûl. I was hard put to it indeed: such light and flame cannot have been seen on Weathertop since the war-beacons of old.

`At sunrise I escaped and fled towards the north. I could not hope to do more

Does it sound like "kicking around all the nazguls", Landroval?

See also here:

Gandalf:
"The Shire," I said; but my heart sank. For even the Wise might fear to withstand the Nine, when they are gathered together under their fell chieftain. A great king and sorcerer he was of old, and now he wields a deadly fear. "

and here:

‘Then, Mithrandir, you had a foe to match you,’ said Denethor. ‘For myself, I have long known who is the chief captain of the hosts of the Dark Tower. Is this all that you have returned to say? Or can it be that you have withdrawn because you are overmatched?’
Pippin trembled, fearing that Gandalf would be stung to sudden wrath, but his fear was needless. ‘It might be so,’ Gandalf answered softly. ‘But our trial of strength is not yet come. And if words spoken of old be true, not by the hand of man shall he fall, and hidden from the Wise is the doom that awaits him

I don't say that the WK would have necessarily won, only that the match seemed almost even.

[Curubethion]

Gandalf:
"The Shire," I said; but my heart sank. For even the Wise might fear to withstand the Nine, when they are gathered together under their fell chieftain. A great king and sorcerer he was of old, and now he wields a deadly fear. "

Note my emphasis on this quote. We're talking about Gandalf vs. WK, one-on-one, not with the Nine together.

[Alcuin]

Gandalf the Grey who battled the Balrog in Moria is not the same as Gandalf the White who faced the Witch-king at the broken Gate of Minas Tirith.

From Letter 156:

…the ‘wizards’, as such, had failed; ... the crisis had become too grave and needed an enhancement of power. So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, and enhanced, and returned. ... he remains similar in personality and idiosyncrasy, but both his wisdom and power are much greater. When he speaks he commands attention; the old Gandalf could not have dealt so with Théoden, nor with Saruman. ... he can act in emergency as an ‘angel’ – no more violently than the release of St Peter from prison. He seldom does so, operating rather through others, but in one or two cases in the War … he does reveal a sudden power: he twice rescues Faramir. He alone is left to forbid the entrance of the Lord of Nazgûl to Minas Tirith, when the City has been overthrown and its Gates destroyed — and yet so powerful is the whole train of human resistance, that he himself has kindled and organized, that in fact no battle between the two occurs: it passes to other mortal hands. ...

I take it that the two rescues of Faramir are Gandalf’s revealing his power:

[Gandalf] raised his hand, and from it a shaft of white light stabbed upwards. The Nazgûl gave a long wailing cry and swerved away; and with that the four others wavered

then later in the Pyre of Denethor, although I am uncertain how

Gandalf revealed the strength that lay hid in him; even as the light of his power was hidden under his grey mantle. He leaped up on to the faggots, and raising the sick man lightly he sprang down again

demonstrates that Gandalf possesses any special powers other than agility and considerable physical strength, but neither in any supernatural way. The “shaft of white light� is clearly supernatural, and if he has not injured one of the Nazgûl, he has certainly frightened them away.

Originally Posted by Gordis

I don't say that the WK would have necessarily won, only that the match seemed almost even

Denethor might not be completely aware of the events in Moria, although I believe he has learned from Pippin virtually everything the hobbit knew as well as much of what he guessed about Gandalf. Still, if he had been in contact with Sauron, and it is likely even at this point that he had already confronted the Dark Lord through the palantÃ*r, Sauron would naturally attempt to convince Denethor that Gandalf was unable to defeat his Black Captain, if for no other reason than to demoralize Denethor. It is not clear that Denethor knew what Gandalf was, although Sauron certainly knew, and so the Witch-king likely knew, too. But that brings up this issue: Sauron’s knowledge, and hence the Witch-king’s as well, was somewhat dated: it was based upon Saruman’s certainties, which were no longer in effect: Gandalf had been returned to Middle-earth to complete the mission originally assigned to five Istari, and probably with some further clarifications and refinements of what Tolkien calls ‘the Rules’ governing the actions of the Istari in order to meet the crisis that now came to full fruition. His conversation with Frodo, Gimli, Merry and Pippin in “The Quest of Ereborâ€� in Unfinished Tales shows him self-reflective on how much he had changed after his return to Middle-earth.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Does it sound like "kicking around all the nazguls", Landroval?

See also here:


and here:

I don't say that the WK would have necessarily won, only that the match seemed almost even.

Nay, for as you quoted, Gandalf said "Even the Wise might fear to withstand the Nine, when they are gathered together under their fell chieftain."

I'm fairly certain that Tolkien wrote somewhere in the Letters that Gandalf's power was roughly equivalent to all Nine Riders, so that unless the Eight were just pansies who went around saying 'Boo!', he was probably significantly more powerful than the Witch-king. If I find it, I'll let you know.

[Landroval]

It is also mentioned in the appendix that the wiki feared Boromir I. Moreover, the original istari are said to be "mighty, peers of Sauron" - cf the The Istari, Unfinnished Tales; and in the letter #210 it is stated that the nazgul "have no great physical power against the fearless", among which I would firstly qualify Gandalf.

[Gordis]

Curubethion: about emphasis on the quote. I see it differently:

Gandalf:
"The Shire," I said; but my heart sank. For even the Wise might fear to withstand the Nine, when they are gathered together under their fell chieftain. A great king and sorcerer he was of old, and now he wields a deadly fear. "

The presence of the Captain in person is of major importance. It is explained why. Everywhere in the books it is made clear that the Captain was way more powerful than any other nazgul. It is confirmed again in no uncertain terms in UT and the Letters. So, yes, Gwaimir, compared to the WK, the other Eight were "pansies".

But, as the LoTR stands now, we have NO explanation why the WK is so much more powerful than the others. They were all Men, after all, and if we suppose that the WK used to be a High Numenorean Lord, then there were two other Numenorean lords among the Nine as well. So, why?

Actually in an old thread I have dig it further, using HOME material.
http://www.entmoot.com/showthread.ph...ghlight=Istari

Originally when this part of the Book was written, the WK had been a wizard, "the mightiest of wizards of Men" and the former head of Gandalf's order who turned evil long ago. Later Tolkien changed his mind about the Wizards, making them Maiar, not Men, so this way the Witch-King lost his identity and background and never got a new one. But most of the references to his superior power remained in the book - so yes, now it is sort of a plothole.

Originally Posted by Landroval

It is also mentioned in the appendix that the wiki feared Boromir I.

I wouldn't rely on "feared" that much. The WK feared Glorfindel, so he fled when he saw him.
As for Boromir I, the WK was apprehensive of his military skills as a captain of Gondor, but he didn't flee from him, he simply eliminated the man. Don't forget, Boromit got stabbed with a Morgul knife, which meant hand-to hand combat with a nazgul.
see also here: http://www.entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=12153

Originally Posted by Gwaimir

I'm fairly certain that Tolkien wrote somewhere in the Letters that Gandalf's power was roughly equivalent to all Nine Riders

Please do look for it, as I don't remember this quote from the Letters.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

But that brings up this issue: Sauron’s knowledge, and hence the Witch-king’s as well, was somewhat dated: it was based upon Saruman’s certainties

That is true, perhaps the WK and Sauron underestimated Gandalf.
But consider also that the WK was somehow boosted in power by Sauron just for the occasion. The thing is, IMO, that any of the opponents could well evaluate the power of the other, but still both were going to take their chances.

Also, the more powerful doesn't necessarily win. A bloated spider of unknown origin almost killed the mightiest of the Valar, Morgoth. A mere Elf wounded him sorely and he knew fear...
An Elven-Maia girl and a Man helped by a dog defeated Gorthaur and later stole a Silmaril from Morgoth. A mere Elf killed the mightiest of the Barlogs, Gothmog. And so on, not forgetting a hobbit defeating the dreaded Shelob.
Of course, all the winners were good guys... so probably the WK wouldn't be granted this sort of luck.

Now, I think, as the story stands now, Gandalf the White would have defeated the WK but it wouldn't have been an easy victory by any means.
Also, Tolkien never considered them actually fighting. There is not a single draft for the fight. The WK was meant to be killed by a woman and a hobbit from the start - it was his Fate.

[jammi567]

But like you said, surely Gandalf could've fought the wk, and won because the proficy didn't affect him. Also, in most of those battles, the heros also got killed. And you can't kill a miar or a valar, because they're totally imortal.

[Landroval]

The presence of the Captain in person is of major importance. It is explained why

Your quote only stresses that the wiki wielded fear as his most powerful weapon. Your own text, plus the letters, plus UT, state that idea, but fear has little if any effect on a being like Gandalf - I hope you will take this into consideration in your arguments.

A bloated spider of unknown origin

Of maia origin

almost killed the mightiest of the Valar, Morgoth

Melkor lost that title, the mightiest, after dispersing his power in marring Arda (the latest - the coming of Tulkas, who put Melkor on his face and chained him single-handedly); moreover, at that particular time, Melkor was weakened by transferring his power into Ungoliant, while Ungoliant was strengthened by Melkor, the power of the Trees, the wells of Arda and of the treasures of the noldor.

An Elven-Maia girl and a Man helped by a dog defeated Gorthaur and later stole a Silmaril from Morgoth

That was the most powerful enchantress known to us, a Man whose overcame the power of Melian's magic and the Hound of Valinor.

A mere Elf killed the mightiest of the Barlogs, Gothmog.

An elf lord, leader of the People of the Fountain - some of the fiercest warriors of Gondolin.

[jammi567]

Originally Posted by Landroval

Melkor lost that title, the mightiest, after dispersing his power in marring Arda (the latest - the coming of Tulkas, who put Melkor on his face and chained him single-handedly); moreover, at that particular time, Melkor was weakened by transferring his power into Ungoliant, while Ungoliant was strengthened by Melkor, the power of the Trees, the wells of Arda and of the treasures of the noldor.

How did he transfer some of his powers into her?

[Landroval]

I can't answer that; here is the passage I had in mind:

Originally Posted by Of the flight of the noldor, Silmarillion

- ... For with my power that I put into thee thy work was accomplished. I need thee no more. These things thou shalt not have, nor see. I name them unto myself for ever.

But Ungoliant had grown great, and he less by the power that had gone out of him

[jammi567]

ok, cool.

[Ellf]

I believe every one has written some truth to this make believe bought between the Witch King & Olorin. I liked what Alcuin says about Gandalf being something new and different after his battle in Moria. I do remember reading about Gandalf saying (I will paraphraze), "I have forgotten much of what I once knew and now I remember much of what I've once forgotten". It's as if Gandalf is saying he's fresh from Valinor again, reinvigorated.

Gandalf the White would have won (he would not let fear get in his way, especially now), but it would have not been an easy bought.

Gandalf would have taken the WK in the sixth round.

[jammi567]

Originally Posted by Ellf

I do remember reading about Gandalf saying (I will paraphraze), "I have forgotten much of what I once knew and now I remember much of what I've once forgotten". It's as if Gandalf is saying he's fresh from Valinor again, reinvigorated.

Yeah, like getting a memory and power upgrade.

[The Telcontarion]

I think the fight between Gandalf and the witch king would have been over swiftly, with Gandalf getting the win.

Eowyn killed the WK in single combat with her sword when the spell on the flesh of the WK was broken by the blade of Meriadoc; she killed him with one blow. You really think it would take more than that for Gandalf to defeat the WK with glamdring. Even if we were talking about Gandalf the grey and not Gandalf the white, I think the WK would have been ripped to shreds.

[jammi567]

Exactly the point.....she struck him down after he lost he defences. I think it would be a different matter if she'd done that before Merry struck with his blade. Same with the fight with him and gandalf. It would take a lot to take him down, because gandalf didn't have the necessary wepon to take him down, as discussed here (despite what people say in the beginning, we do get to what wepons could've taken down the witch ling - eventually).