Celeborn

Does anyone know what Celeborn's relationship with Thingol is exactly?

I believe Celeborn's relationship to Thingol was something that kind of evolved. IIRC, Sil. says he was a kinsman, which can mean a cousin of some degree or another. There is a section in Unfinished Tales dealing with the history of Galadriel and Celeborn which gives us an idea of how JRRT viewed Celeborn at various times. Based on the published texts (Sil and LOTR), Celeborn was "the grandson of Thngol's brother Elmo--a shadowy figure about whom nothing is told save that he was the younger brother of Elwe (Thingol) and Olwe, and was 'beloved of Elwe with whom he remained'. (Elmo's son was named Galadhon, and his sons were Celeborn and Galathil; Galathil was the daughter of Nimloth, who was wedded to Dior Thingol's Heir and was the mother of Elwing. By this genealogy Celeborn was a kinsman of Galadriel, the grand-daughter of Olwe of Alqualonde...)" UT, p.233.

i just think its funny Celeborn's real name is "TelePorno" no joke read it in the appendixes

you see, i knew that Gollum was a hobbit, hummm

Thanks very much for the Celeborn genealogy.

Second question, to anyone who might know the answer. Does Celeborn go over the sea in the end?

His parting words to Aragorn in LOTR impy that he will not join Galadriel in the west, ever: "Kinsman, farewell! May your doom be other than mine, and your treasure remain with you to the end!"

But, after Galadriel departs, Celeborn apparently tires of his new realm in southern Mirkwood, and goes to Imladris. Then he sort of disappears. When Arwen returns to Lorien after Elessar's death, the appendix material in The Return of the King informs us that "Celeborn also was gone."

So what happened to him?

I'd like to think that love for Galadriel finally brings him to Valinor, love overcoming whatever it is that's kept him from completing the journey he began when the Teleri were first venturing westward. (I'd guess that he was numbered among the "kinfolk and friends" of Elwe who tarried looking for him while Olwe was bringing the main host over.)

Galadriel is my favorite character, so it'd be comforting to know that in returning to the Undying Lands she hasn't been sundered for all eternity from her beloved. But having only the books of the trilogy and The Silmarillion, I can't seem to find the answer.

Don't worry easygreen, someone amongst us will be able to answer your question. Yoohoo... Eruve........

BTW, welcome to Entmoot!

Actually, I don't know if Celeborn's fate is ever spelled out... It might be in Letters, I'll have to check. I'll let you know if I find out anything. BTW, the Elves who returned into the West couln't go back to Valinor. They went to Tol Eressea.

Celeborn went to the west some years after Aragorns death, possibly along with Elladan and Elrohir.

Maglor

I´m pretty sure he went west but i cannot remember now the qoute nor the source. "somewhere" (and that must be LOTR, or Apendixes, cuz i haven´t read any other book save Hobbit and Sil.) Tolkien says he went west in the latest ship (i guess excluding that of Legolas).

i yhink it says something as "last of all departed Celeborn with the last ship"

but perhaps i´m wrong <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/ohwell.gif ALT=":\">

According to the Quenta Silmarillion, after Morgoth's final defeat, the Vanyar return straight to Valinor. The Elves of Beleriand, on the other hand, "dwelt upon Tor Eressea, the Lonely Isle, that looks both west and east; whence they might even come to Valinor."

Similarly, in the section entitled "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age": "From the Grey Havens the Elder ever and anon set sail, fleeing from the darkness of the days of Earth; for by the mercy of the Valar the Firstborn could still follow the Straight road and return, if they would, to their kindred in Eressea and Valinor beyond the encircling sea."

The first passage indicates that the Exiles (with the Sindar) did indeed touch down in Eressea, but it doesn't seem as though they were stuck there. Least that's how I read "whence they might even come to Valinor." The second passage doesn't mention a ban against the Noldor, so I just assume that the edict against them has been lifted.

The sundering of the Eldar was Morgoth's doing, so it seems fitting that the rift should be healed with his final overthrow.

But maybe I'm misreading everything.

Sorry, easygreen, i cannot think about that now, i cannot find the quote i mentioned upper and i´m going mad because now i remember it better: it said something as "last of all departed Celeborn and with him went the last memory of the Elder Days"

does anybody know what i´m talking about?

i cannot think where he departed to if i don´t know if he departed at all 8o

Now i have found peace at last I haven´t found that quote, but i´ve found another from Michael Martinez which says: "When Celeborn finally sailed over Sea, Tolkien notes, the last living memory of the Elder Days went with him."

I take that as if it came directly from the Professor

Woah, easygreen, I'm in a bind similar to Fat Middle. I know there's a passage somewhere that says the exiles can't live in Valinor (maybe they can visit...), but I'll have to find it. Don't know if I'll have time today. Fat Middle's passage is bugging me, too. I know I've read that somewhere, too, but I can't find it! ARGH!

I think that second passage about their sundered kin in Valinor could refer to those that were left behind (i.e. the Elves the Exiles left behind were the ones in Valinor). Through intermarriage between the Vanyar and the Noldor some of the exiles had relatives in Valinor. The Vanyar had moved to Valinor by the time of the Revolt.

OK, I made a mistake. Unless there's something else that I haven't had the time to look up, it wasn't that the Exiles couldn't go to Valinor, it's that they didn't for the most part. Just skimming through the Appendices to LOTR, I found this: "The First Age ended with the Great Battle, in which the Host of Valinor broke Thangorodrim and overthrew Morgoth. Then most of the Noldor returned into the Far West and dwelt in Eressea within sight of Valinor; and many of the Sindar went over the Sea also." That's from the beginning of Appendix B.

Fat Middle, that quote about Celeborn is really driving me nuts! I KNOW I've seen it, but I can't find it. Please, anyone who knows where that's from, put me out of my misery...

put us out of our misery

Maybe the line should be put up at andustar's LOTR trivia quote thread.....

Eruve, why don't you ask some of the other forums that you hang out in if they remember the line? Surely someone out there knows the answer.

And Easygreen, good topic......I just love a mystery.

ufff, i found it. It´s the last line of the Prologue of LOTR.

Thanks Fat Middle!

I thought I remembered a quote to that effect too, but it wasn't where I thought it'd be (the Talke of Years, or somewhere else in the appendix material). The prologue. Argh. The last place one would expect it almost.

It's interesting that the actual quote is "there is no record of" Celeborn's departure -- which could mean a) he departed after all the records were made or b) he didn't depart. The drift of the paragraph as a whole suggests the first choice. But Tolkien seems to have taken great pains to preserve the ambiguity, which he could easily have cleared up.

Thanks! I would never have thought of looking there, either! One thing I did notice in my desperate search for that quote was at the end of the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, the following: "Here ends this tale as it has come to us from the South; and with the passing of Evenstar no more is said in this book of the days of old." Might this, perhaps, imply that Celeborn left after Arwen died, and so did not get recorded in the Red Book?

Had you ever been bother for the Celeborn´s choosing?

i mean, at the end of 1st Age Galadriel decided to stay at Middle Earth for her love to Celeborn besides her love for Middle Earth... And now, at the en of the 3rd Age, Celeborn decides not departing with his wife because he wants to stay a little more at ME.

i think that´s odd. i cannot believe he´s such a bad husband. Galadriel had no option. She had to depart because she had one of the 3 rings, and their time had ended. a good husband would go with her in spite of the love he could have for ME.

why did he stay? i´ve made a little theory to justify his attitude. i think he departed in the last Great Ship from the Grey Havens. it should be before Legolas departure, cuz he had to make his own ship. Legolas should know there was no ship yet at the Grey Havens, so he didn´t bother to go there, and sailed from the south. The date of Legolas departing is FA 120. That´s a very short period (in elven terms) after the Grey Havens chapter. If we assume that Celeborn had already departed it makes things odder. Why to part from his wife to "enjoy" ME such a short time?

i conclude he had to have a mission. after the departure or the 3 rings one great elven lord should stay to "convince" the rest of the elves that their time was ended. But i think he had another more definite mission.

how did Sam go west? how did he know he could depart? my little theory is that Celeborn´s mission was to stay at ME till the moment of Sam´s departure was came. Then he would go to the Shire and tell him his beloved Frodo was waiting for him far in the west and that he could go there in his own ship.

what do you think?