Grima Cries!

[Fimbrethil]

Originally posted by Telcontar
I saw the tear too. I've always liked that part. What I think it signifies is his cold heart crying for tears of "joy". In the same manner that one would cry hearing his/her national anthem/seeing a manned-shuttle launch, etc. (whatever gives you the chills), this is his sick way of displaying his emotion. Sort of like a proud moment for him as an evil being. I know this probably doesn't make sense, but I'm having a hard time trying to describe the way I think he's feeling.

Ah, yes you have a point but! (Of course there's somehting after that I just wanted to see if you would ask) But, did you see his face? You can't just say someone cried and then try to figure out why, put them in the situaiton, analyze it yourself(sillyness aside), and then look at and analyze the facial expression and possibly the amount of tears.

Er...given the place and what had all happened before I'd sai it was a combination of things. The fact that he *cough* loved Eowyn and the fact that his mortalyity had just been realized and maybe he felt that these people who had "abadoned" him and made him to feel inferior were still his people and he had just condemded them to death. His facial express said shock and my god what have I done?! so that leads me to believe it was more than self pity, mind you that could still have been a part of it. The oen tear thing, well that's simple, two or three would have taken up to much screen time.

This is kinda drawn on what everyone said...so yes I did still your ideas minus the silly. Though I agree you guys might have been on to somthing.

[AL.D]

Definately a tear of joy.

An "oh my god, look at the lovely big army of killers you've got. It's all a bit too much" sort of thing.

[Fewin Greenleaf]

Originally posted by Cirdan
It was just a movie. He didn't cry in the book.

here!

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Fewin Greenleaf
here!

I think the idea is linked up in the EE DVD added scenes that have Grima attacking Saruman in Orthanc (as opposed to the Scouring... book version of his demise). So remorse is the supposed motivation for the attack instead of the extended abusive relationship with "Sharkey" from the book, IMO. Making Grima a resentful and manipulated individual instead of a vindictive co-cospirator allows shortening the character arc of Grima and facilitating on the early "resolution" of Saruman.

[Telcontar]

Originally posted by Cirdan:

...So remorse is the supposed motivation for the attack instead of the extended abusive relationship with "Sharkey" from the book, IMO...

Now seeing it the way you guys have mentioned that it was out of remorse, that may be the reason for the tear in the first place. He did love Eowyn, and he realized that she would be killed. Later he murders Saruman out of remorse and also anger from abuse. Although I though it to be the latter when reading the book. This is a totally different insight I didn't even think of before.

[Mrs Maggot]

I'm sorry, but there is no way in hell that is a tear of joy. It is an 'Oh my God, Eowyn's going to die and it's all my fault' tear.

[BeardofPants]

We don't know that. For all we know he could have been enjoying a scoop of his favourite icecream, or maybe he found out that levis finally managed to order in those uber-fashionable breeches he was after?

[Fimbrethil]

I agree. We don't know. I jsut thought it would be fun to speculate. I prefer the idea that it was remorse...but we don't really know.

Hmmm...he didn't cry in the book but let's pretend he did. Tolkien would have added a sentence or maybe two about the tear(s) and they(it) was there. Considering that it is Tolkien and the way he wrote what do you think he would have made Grima cry for? Or,perhaps he didn't make Grima cry because he didn't know why to make him cry. Waht do you think?

[Stephen]

Originally posted by Valandil
Tears of joy?

Yes, grima thought the army was such a beautiful thing that he shed a tear of joy.

[Telcontar]

Originally posted by Mrs Maggot

I'm sorry, but there is no way in hell that is a tear of joy. It is an 'Oh my God, Eowyn's going to die and it's all my fault' tear.

I think you need to read what I had said earlier...

Originally posted by Telcontar

I saw the tear too. I've always liked that part. What I think it signifies is his cold heart crying for tears of "joy". In the same manner that one would cry hearing his/her national anthem/seeing a manned-shuttle launch, etc. (whatever gives you the chills), this is his sick way of displaying his emotion. Sort of like a proud moment for him as an evil being. I know this probably doesn't make sense, but I'm having a hard time trying to describe the way I think he's feeling.

I was saying tear of "joy" because it was an overwhelming emotion to him. A sick and twisted emotion of evil. Gimli7410 thought the same thing. The rest of you goof on it, but you don't look past it. Although the other theory of remorse admittedly sounds better. Just my initial observation upon seeing the movie.

Sidepoint: I can't remember if the book mentions that he "loves" her. If not, I think he just wants her as his possession, like a trophy wife. Probably shouldn't mention that, you guys will probably goof on that too...

[Mrs Maggot]

Grima is obviously an evil and cold-hearted character who thinks of litte else apart from himself, but that does not mean that he is totally inhuman. Wes saw that in The Scouring of the Shire when he killed Saruman. He is still capable of human emotions and caring about Eowyn's fate is one of them. I agree that his feelings for her were onviously highly selfish and that he probably did only want her as a trophy wife, but at the same time he was captivated by her. When he saw the huge army of uruks and realised that Rohan was doomed, he also realised that Eowyn would most probably dies, and this possibly upset him because he was about to lose something that he had desired for so long. Whilst he would have welcomed the destruction of Rohan, the death of Eowyn would be a different matter, which woul leave him feeling a bit conflicted. Having said that, i don't think he woud have felt great remorse for it although i know I implied that before. I think he would have blamed Saruman, not himself, so i don't agree that remorse would have been a motivation for him killing saruman. I think that came out of his humiliation at how he was treated by saruman.

[Stephen]

I don't understand why he would be crying for eowyn then, a tear implies great remorse...

I truly think grima was awestruck... there have been times i have cried tears of joy due to some awe inspiring event. I'll agree remorse had a part in the backstab but... i think grima only truly felt remorse after theoden forgave him.

[Curubethion]

I think it was an awestruck tear or a tear of joy at the "beautiful" sight of the army. To his twisted mind, it truly would be a beautiful sight. And beautiful things make people cry.

[Jon S.]

Originally Posted by Cirdan

It was just a movie. He didn't cry in the book.

By that logic he never went to the bathroom either.

[Curubethion]

Good logic, though. Just because the book didn't record a scene like that in the movie doesn't mean it didn't happen in the story...as long as it makes sense, which this seems to.

[tolkienfan]

It was windy out! I think I remember Saruman's hair flying around a little bit, and, as Finrod Felagund said, he has watery eyes.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Mrs Maggot

Grima is obviously an evil and cold-hearted character who thinks of litte else apart from himself, but that does not mean that he is totally inhuman. Wes saw that in The Scouring of the Shire when he killed Saruman.

You mean to stub someone from the back is totally human.
But this is not the point...

Somehow everyone is forgetting that Grima, son of Galmod, quite recently has got his nick-name "Wormtongue", maybe for the last five years; up to that time he was a wise and trustworthy King Theoden's councellor.
Unfortunately he was, as it said, "seduced" by Saruman into treachery. But I think that "seduction" is a very mild expression, it was more like Sauron ring's mind controlling influence over Nazgul. They were clewer and proud kings, but ended up being as the uttery subservient slaves of the Master. I bet , they were not happy to cater for every wish of theirs enslaver, but were powerless to do something against it.

Now we know that Saruman has got himself the magic ring, and Grima, probably, became his first lab rat.
He was capable of emotions, all right, he was hating Saruman with all his guts for making him to do evil things, to be ill-treated, but nevertheless had to follow Saruman and witness his grandiose plans to become another ruler of Middle-earth.
Won't you shed a tear upon realizing of the imminient destruction of your homeland?

Whilst he would have welcomed the destruction of Rohan,

Could you explain, based on which text in the book, or on which words in the movie you have got such idea?

[Stephen]

At the moment he spit on aragorns hand... i'd bet grima would have welcomed rohan's destruction. The crying scene happens shortly thereafter so it is arguable grima was still feeling that intense hate for rohan as he shed his tear.

[King of The Istari]

well in the audio commentary Brad Douriff says he was playing it with the overwelmingness of seeing the evil you have helped create and what it will do So I believe it is of remorse for what he has done its to back up the scene in the ROTK EE where he stabs him in the back atop of Orthanc.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Stephen

At the moment he spit on aragorns hand...

And what would you do to a self-righteous, pompous and self-promouting vagrant, who questioned an authority of the host, who invited him in his house, and right away puts himself on the same level with the King?
In movie it shows just in Theoden's mild irritation, reminding to Aragorn that in Rohan HE gives orders.

In the book it's a scene when he made a big deal over the order of the King to leave weapons behind, igniting hostility of already unfriendly guards up to the point of asking for troubles, so Gandalf had to step in as a pacifier.