Origins of Wormtongue

[Haradrim]

I was wondering if anyone knew what happened to Grima. Something always happens to bad guys to make them go bad or usually anyway. So I felt Grima deserved an explanation. If anyone knows then start discussing it. Does anyone feel bad for him? Does anyone understand why? Would you have done the same? Discuss!

[mithrand1r]

Originally Posted by Haradrim

I was wondering if anyone knew what happened to Grima. Something always happens to bad guys to make them go bad or usually anyway. So I felt Grima deserved an explanation. If anyone knows then start discussing it. Does anyone feel bad for him? Does anyone understand why? Would you have done the same? Discuss!

IIRC, Grima was killed by Hobbit arrows after he killed Sauruman.

It can be found in ROTK.

(without knowing all the facts)
I think initially he was misled by Sauruman into betraying his king and country. (I have no facts to back this point.)
Even after things went poorly for Grima he was given more than one opportunity to a fresh start away from Sauruman. Unfortunately for Grima he choose to remain with Sauruman and the result is told in ROTK.

Things could have gone better for Grima if he repented and took advantage of the opportunity given to him to have a fresh start.

Things would have been better if Grima never betrayed the trust of the Rohan people.

post 444

[Haradrim]

yeahI know how he was killed but I am wondering why he went evil. Also what were his oppurtunities to turn back?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Gandalf on the way back to Rivndell and Frodo in the Shire.

[Haradrim]

okay good examples but why did he go evil and also once under the control of Sauruman he probably couldnt leave it without a knife in the back

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Well surely he could have left when there was Gandalf, Celeborn, Galadriel, 4 hobbits and a load of elves and then when there was a load of hobbit archers.

[Haradrim]

but what made him go evil? that is what I really want to know. I cant find out wehat did it

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Well Saruman had a materful voice so maybe he could have seduced Grima into becoming evil, which would explain Theordens unawarness if once he had been a good man of ohan.

[Haradrim]

usually good people become evil casue there weife was killed and they get some fake promise or something like that. Maybe I am worng but I thought something like that happened to Grima.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Why was GrÃ*ma Wormtongue evil!? I feel it was because he wanted what he could never have. He wanted Éowyn, and probably more! He knew he could not attain all that he wanted and probably never saw an opportunity to get it. It is said that in the year 3014 of the Third Age Theoden started to fall ill, and Wormtongue began to gain a major influence on the king. It must be that for some time Wormtongue was already under the service of the king and acted as his cheif advisor. Sometime before 3014 Saruman must have gained Wormtongue's allegiance with the promise of all that he wanted. Seeing is how Wormtongue was not the type to, nor would he have been capable of, taking what he wanted by force. Yet saruman was, and that was his apeal. The real question is, why would GrÃ*ma Wormtongue continue to serve under Saruman after he was cast out of Orthanc!? He no longer had anything to gain. Perhaps it was just that... mind controling(seemingly) voice of Saruman!?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Maybe Saruman told him that he would reinstate himself and rise again.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Which brings up an idea that was presented in another thread, that Saruman can't really die, in his Maiar form. So, like Sauron, he could return!?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Saruman as an Istari could die just not his Maia form.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Which is exactlly what I said haha! And like Sauron when he lost his fair form forever in the fall of Númenor. Saruman could eventually become the next Sauron! However we digress from the point, which is Wormtongue not Saruman. And perhaps he did persuade Grima to think he would be in power again. Now that I think about it infact I think he was intedning to have Kinglike power over the hobbits! Grima as his steward or something!?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yeah. For Frodo said in the Shire that the only remaining power of Saruman's was his voice.

[Attalus]

I fully believe that, as Halbarad said, Wormtongue was "turned" by his hopeless infatuation with Éowyn. Perhaps he spoke of it to Saruman, or perhaps that is just how he rationalized his betrayal. After that, I am sure that Saruman dominated him and he could always hear that voice urging him to more evil.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Halbarad of the Dunedain

Perhaps it was just that... mind controling(seemingly) voice of Saruman!?

More sertainly it was a mind controlling devise, similar to Sauron's rings.
Remember, Gandalf saw a ring on Saruman hand, which he possibly made by finding the missing links in his own researches into Ring-lore,(We already discussed this possibility)
Poor Grima was his first lab rat
This explains why he can't break the tie and grow to hate Saruman because of it.

[Valandil]

Interesting... I've wondered too if Saruman's ring helped him gain a measure of control over the Orcs in his service. I think we talked about that in a thread something like; "Was Saruman a Ring-bearer?"

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Olmer

This explains why he can't break the tie and grow to hate Saruman because of it.

But he did hate Saruman. He just wouldn't leave him.