My new theory on Tom Bombadil

[Elanor]

I was recently rereading the Fellowship of the Ring, and during the Tom Bombadil part I thought deeply about what he might be. I know that JRR Tolkien mostly leaves it a mystery but I also think he wants us to speculate (feel free to argue after you've read it), so here's one you probably haven't heard before. Tom Bombadil is simply part of the Music. Here's what I mean:

But when the Valar entered into Ea they were at first astounded and at a loss, for it was as if naught was yet made which they had seen in vision, and all was but on point to begin and yet unshaped, and it was dark. For the Great Music had been but the growth and flowering of thought in the Timeless Halls, and the Vision only a foreshowing, but now they had entered into the beginning of Time . . . but Melkor too was there from the first. --Ainulindale

So when did Tom Bombadil arrive on the scene?

Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before the Big People, and saw the little People arriving. He was here before the Kings and the graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless--before the Dark Lord came from Outside. --In the House of Tom Bombadil

I think the Dark Lord Tom refers to is Melkor. Although Sauron came from Outside early on, at that time Sauron wasn't THE Dark Lord. Therefore Tom had to be there before Melkor or the Valar arrived; he can't be either a Vala or a Maia. I would suggest that Goldberry is a spirit of the water, and that there are many such "spirits" that are also in a way, part of the Music of the Ainur.

And it is said by the Eldar that in water there live yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance else that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Iluvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and know not for what they listen. --Ainulindale

But since Goldberry came from the river Withywindle, and Tom was there before the rivers were even shaped, I would suggest that he is not a "spirit" but is more directly part of Iluvatar's Music of creation.

"He is the Master of water, wood, and hill"--he he has complete power over that little area in the North of Arda--but "Tom's country ends here: he will not pass the borders."

The clue that mostly gave me this idea, though, is the way Tom talks. He sings almost constantly, and makes it up as he goes along, unlike the other songs in LotR which are completely made up before they're spoken. Even when he's not singing, almost everything he says fits a specific rhythm. Try reading his dialogue out loud sometime and if you have a good sense of rhythm you'll catch it. Sometimes it's more obvious than other times, especially when he's happy. It's as if one little melody of Iluvatar got stuck in a specific place in Middle-Earth and just kept on singing.

So is he the oldest of anyone? He's older than Treebeard, who was made by Yavanna after she came to Ea. But he's younger than all the Ainur, who sang him into being.

[ringbearer]

An excelent theory!

[Kamyel]

Hmmm... I don't know whether it's accurate or not, but of all the theories I've heard of Bombadil, this one is my favorite.

[mrs legolas]

well...it also describes what he looks like...so are you saying that he is not really there? I just picture him to be like a troll~elf sort of thing...really tiny...with skinny little legs jumping about and running all over the place rhyming and singing. I really enjoyed that part of the book...it would be funny to see it in the movie...
As Torch Boy said...he would be kind of gay...but I don't think so.

[bropous]

Nice hypothesis, but there is no substantial proof to turn it into theory. There is no writing by Tolkien that backs it up, so it falls into the realm of speculation.

Also, Tom Bombadil could NOT be present in the World prior to the arrival of Melkor or the other Valar, because the World did not EXIST prior to the arrival of the Valar and Maiar.

Re-read the Ainulindale and Valaquenta [first two books of the Silmarillion], and you will see that the Valar were only shown a vision of the World when Eru showed them the Void; when they thought they entered the World, they found it did not exist, and they had to create it. Therefore, no creation in that World could exist prior to the Creators.

Page 10: "But when the Valar entered into Ea they were at first astounded and at a loss, for it was as if naught was yet made which they had seen in vision, and all was but on point to begin and yet unshaped, and it was dark. For the Great Music had been but the growth and flowering of thought in the Timeless Halls, and the Vision only a foreshadowing; and the Valar perceived that the World had been but foreshadowed and foresung, and they must achieve it. So began their great labours in wastes unmeasured and unexplored..."

Bullseye.

[Ñólendil]

because the World did not EXIST prior to the arrival of the Valar and Maiar.

It existed, it simply had no definite form. Not that I think Tom was there before the Ainur were.

[Lightice]

Ainur created the world, by Eru's instructions (the Song), but they came there little later and became Valar and Maiar, though not all Ainur went to Arda.
They first were outside the world, and the came into it, becoming part of it.
I think, that this theory is exellent, right or not. One of the best I've heard.

[Spock]

Tom was before all that is.
Verified during a conversation with him last week. :-)

[bropous]

sorry, lightice, the hypothesis cannot be supported by Tolkien's writings, however nice it may sound, and in fact, is DIRECTLY contradicted by Tolkien's writings, quoted above, but here is the salient portion again:

"...and the Valar perceived that the World had been but foreshadowed and foresung, and they must achieve it. So began their great labours in wastes unmeasured and unexplored..."

They must achieve it. Not that they should reshape it, redirect it, or reform what was already there. They had to achieve the vision which they had been shown, which only had been foreshadowed by the music.

True, not all Ainur entered the world, but those who did were the Valar and Maiar, and the world was formless (correct, Inoldonil, there was existence, however, it was without form). And nothing could exist inside it prior to its having form except for those who were to form it.

Plus, the sine qua non ["without which, nothing"] of whether a "theory" is of ANY quality, Lightice, is whether it is CORRECT. One may claim a "theory" of the pothead pixies living at the center of stars and communing by sending vast gobs of half-cooked farina between the stars, and couch it in flowery prose, decorated with bells and whistles and pompoms, but if it flies in the face of evidence, the only quality it possesses is incorrect.

Again, from Science 101, a "theory" is an "hypothesis" backed up by "observation." the theory espoused at the beginning of the thread is not backed up by observation from the texts.

[Michael Martinez]

Careful readers will be quick to note that the Ainur entered Ea, which is the universe, and they labored for uncounted ages among the stars before arriving at the region where they shaped Arda, the habitation of the Children of Iluvatar.

Good scholarship will also note that The Silmarillion says that Iluvatar introduces new things in each age which are not foreshadowed in the Music, which careful scholarship will also note was cut short and was just a series of themes. The Valar derived much of their knowledge from the Vision which Iluvatar showed them.

Elanor's theory is, in general, as plausible as any, and more so than most. She is to be commended for original thinking and scholarship.

[Ñólendil]

Don't you think that's enough with the subtle scholar-shots?

[Michael Martinez]

Originally posted by Inoldonil


Don't you think that's enough with the subtle scholar-shots?

That's hard to say, considering I'm in no better command of any facts than anyone else, regardless of who dares to check a book before setting finger to keyboard.

[Ñólendil]

He has apologized.

[Michael Martinez]

Originally posted by Inoldonil
He has apologized.

Oh, right. He's apologized, while asserting that I've forgotten about tobacco use in the book and stating unequivocably that I am not in any better command of the facts than he is.

If that's really the case, then I might as well never crack another book again. Clearly, I can say whatever I want and if someone objects, I can just apologize and point out that I know as much as they do about whatever -- reality doesn't have to enter into the equation, does it?

Are you sure you really want to drag this out? I'm growing quite weary of it. You're being rather strong and immobile about this, after all.

[bropous]

Michael:

I meant to just let things go, but I did want to make one very important point:

I issued you an unequivocal, unqualified, blanket apology for ALL my wrongs against you, and admitted I did not have all the facts when I took the tack I did. I stand by that, no matter how much you desire to continue the snide attacks. I was wrong, and for that I am truly sorry.

Michael, it takes a MAN to admit when he is wrong [no offense, ladies!]. I did exactly that. Can you be just as big a man and accept that apology? Somehow I hold out the hope you are just that.

My reson d'etre here is not to put you down, nor my fellow Mooters. I am here to discuss, and admittedly, I have gotten unpleasant on a few issues and my responses have not been all that respectful nor understanding of others' opinions. From those mistakes I am learning, and am endeavoring to amend my ways. Is it possible for you to learn as well from this melee?

As far as I am concerned, I offer you a clean slate, and request the same from you. Please do not play into proving my original points about you, for I am hoping to the Valar they are NOT deserved, and that you have qualities to which I had initially been blinded. I hope to see those qualities unblinded in future.

Apology from the other thread sincerely repeated here, for ALL my past wrongs to you and to your works. May we please call this issue settled, and wish each other a happy road in our separate travels? The last thing I would like to do is to have this misuinderstanding, for misunderstanding it truly is, sunder two people who obviously care very much for the subject we both love to discuss.

Hopefully you do not see this as going back on my word, Inoldonil. I simply felt my prior apology may not have been clear enough.

Back to the Mooting, all!

[Kiri]

This is my new theory on Tom Bombadil. It is mine. It is a theory. It is new. It is a new theory on Tom Bombadil.

First, my theory is that he is initially called "Tom". After he is called "Tom", he is then often called "Bombadil", but as a whole (and here is the very clever part of my theory) he is called "Tom Bombadil".


I hope that my theory has not deviated too far from the specific and explicit words of Published Canon.

I shall now go sacrifice a goat to my Commonwealth first-edition paperbacks.

[bropous]

Hmmmm....oddly reminiscent on a certain Monty Pythonic professor's theory on dinosaurs, kiri, in which she states, "dinosaurs are thin at one end, very large at the middle, and then thin again at the other end!"

[galadriel]

heehee... very nice theory, Kiri.

[Kirinki54]

I have gathered that Tom was originally a doll in Tolkien´s real family. That might account for some of Tom´s "toy-like" qualities in the book, if someone gets my meaning.

[bropous]

Here's a quote from JRR in 1954 about Tom Bombadil:

'Tom Bombadil is not an important person - to the narrative. I suppose he has some importance as a "comment." I mean, I do not really write like that; he is just an invention (who first appeared in the Oxford magazine about 1933), and he represents something that I feel important, though I would not be prepared to analyze the feeling precisely. I would not, however, have left him in, if he did not have some kind of function. I might put it this way. The story is cat in terms of a good side, and a bad side, beauty against ruthless ugliness, tyranny against kingship, moderated freedom with consent against compulsion that has long list any object save mere power, and so on...Ultimately only the victory of the West will allow Bombadil to continue, or even to survive. Nothing would be left for him in the world of Sauron." Letters of JRR Tolkien, pages 178-179.