Favorite Maiar

[brownjenkins]

i imagine the spirits of sauron, saruman and the balrogs lived on weakly... and remember, saruman made his own ring, so maybe he is destined to recorporate at some point

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
i imagine the spirits of sauron, saruman and the balrogs lived on weakly... and remember, saruman made his own ring, so maybe he is destined to recorporate at some point

he did? I must have mised that part or either I don't rmember it...isn't it in LotR?

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
he did? I must have mised that part or either I don't rmember it...isn't it in LotR?

He said to Gandalf that he's the 'Ring maker' before Saruman locked Gandalf in Orthank.(Maybe it's mentioned in other places. )

[Aden]

"For I am Saruman, the Wise, Saruman the Ring-maker, Saruman of Many Colours."

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Aden
"For I am Saruman, the Wise, Saruman the Ring-maker, Saruman of Many Colours."

so does anyone know what he means when he says this? Did he actually make a ring that he wore? I mean he WAS a Maia of Aule so he would be knowledgable in metalsmithing and such.

[brownjenkins]

i've read most of the supplementary tolkien material and saruman's ring was never mentioned again as far as i remember

i always thought it could make an interesting sequel... sam's great grandson planting a new garden in front of bagend near where saruman was killed when suddenly... "what's this... a ring... how preciousss it looks..."

[Aden]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
so does anyone know what he means when he says this? Did he actually make a ring that he wore? I mean he WAS a Maia of Aule so he would be knowledgable in metalsmithing and such.

No I don't think anyone can be sure about what really happened

I found this, it's a theory about Saruman's ring though I don't know how accurate could it be...check it out:

"A Theory about Grima of Rohan
From a rec.arts.books.tolkien posting dated 19 July 1995.
Okay, here's a new theory concerning Saruman and Grima.

Saruman, who was a Maia of Aule just as Sauron once was, became learned in Ring-lore as he studied Sauron's evil works. Too well learned, as it turned out; for Saruman gradually turned to evil himself, emulating Sauron's works. Saruman also experimented with the making of a Ring of his own. Here's part of Gandalf's account to the Council of Elrond (Fellowship of the Ring, pp. 271-2 hardback, italics mine):

"'...and there he [Saruman] met me and led me up to his high chamber. He wore a ring on his finger...
"'..."For I am Saruman the Wise, Saruman Ring-maker, Saruman of Many Colours!"'"
But if Saruman were to experiment with making Rings of Power, he wouldn't make only one, would he? No; I think he'd make at least one other, and try to get his ring to exert an influence over the wearer of the other. And who would he give such a ring to?

Grima Wormtongue seems the obvious answer, since he was so completely under Saruman's control.

...Kind of helps you see Saruman in a new light, doesn't it? Sure, Sauron may have had the Nazgul, the Ringwraiths; but perhaps Saruman in his turn had Grima, the Ringworm! "

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Aden
No I don't think anyone can be sure about what really happened

I found this, it's a theory about Saruman's ring though I don't know how accurate could it be...check it out:

"A Theory about Grima of Rohan
From a rec.arts.books.tolkien posting dated 19 July 1995.
Okay, here's a new theory concerning Saruman and Grima.

Saruman, who was a Maia of Aule just as Sauron once was, became learned in Ring-lore as he studied Sauron's evil works. Too well learned, as it turned out; for Saruman gradually turned to evil himself, emulating Sauron's works. Saruman also experimented with the making of a Ring of his own. Here's part of Gandalf's account to the Council of Elrond (Fellowship of the Ring, pp. 271-2 hardback, italics mine):

"'...and there he [Saruman] met me and led me up to his high chamber. He wore a ring on his finger...
"'..."For I am Saruman the Wise, Saruman Ring-maker, Saruman of Many Colours!"'"
But if Saruman were to experiment with making Rings of Power, he wouldn't make only one, would he? No; I think he'd make at least one other, and try to get his ring to exert an influence over the wearer of the other. And who would he give such a ring to?

Grima Wormtongue seems the obvious answer, since he was so completely under Saruman's control.

...Kind of helps you see Saruman in a new light, doesn't it? Sure, Sauron may have had the Nazgul, the Ringwraiths; but perhaps Saruman in his turn had Grima, the Ringworm! "

thanks!

[Ulmo]

Saruman and Sauron died - they truly died, the way Gandalf did. Sauron was weakened further and further by spreading his evil and became bound to the final incarnation he held at the time of the War of the Ring (permanent incarnation, as Morgoth too experienced). Because of the nature of the Istari incarnation, they too were bound to their bodies, and if that body were to die, their spirit would leave Middle-earth. This makes it apparent that the balrogs share the same fate.

Gandalf's spirit did the same, which is why Eru himself sent Gandalf back - he wasn't reembodied in Mandos nor did his spirit return to Aman at all. It left the confines of the world.

Even Morgoth himself was subject to these conditions and was in fact killed. Tolkien writes about it in Myths Transformed :

...Morgoth was thus actually made captive in physical form, and in that form taken as a mere criminal to Aman and delivered to Námo Mandos as judge – and executioner. He was judged, and eventually taken out of the Blessed Realm and executed: that is killed like one of the Incarnates. It was then made plain (though it must have been understood beforehand by Manwë and Námo) that, though he had 'disseminated' his power (his evil and possessive and rebellious will) far and wide into the matter of Arda, he had lost direct control of this, and all that 'he', as a surviving remnant of integral being, retained as 'himself and under control was the terribly shrunken and reduced spirit that inhabited his self-imposed (but now beloved) body. When that body was destroyed he was weak and utterly 'houseless', and for that time at a loss and 'unanchored' as it were. We read that he was then thrust out into the Void.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Ulmo
Saruman and Sauron died - they truly died, the way Gandalf did. Sauron was weakened further and further by spreading his evil and became bound to the final incarnation he held at the time of the War of the Ring (permanent incarnation, as Morgoth too experienced). Because of the nature of the Istari incarnation, they too were bound to their bodies, and if that body were to die, their spirit would leave Middle-earth. This makes it apparent that the balrogs share the same fate.

Gandalf's spirit did the same, which is why Eru himself sent Gandalf back - he wasn't reembodied in Mandos nor did his spirit return to Aman at all. It left the confines of the world.

Some time ago in a parlour with Findegil I think we concluded that the death of the Istari were different from Sauron's and Morgoth's death in that they were sent to Middle Earth as old Men on a mission on Eru's behalf. That is, by Eru's direct intervention not only did they appear as Men, but they would also share their fate concerning death. If their bodies were killed, their spirits would leave the world and come to Eru (as happened with Gandalf), but the spirits of Sauron and the Balrogs were bound to the world as was the fate for all the AÃ*nur.

[Thorin II]

Originally posted by Artanis
Some time ago in a parlour with Findegil I think we concluded that the death of the Istari were different from Sauron's and Morgoth's death in that they were sent to Middle Earth as old Men on a mission on Eru's behalf. That is, by Eru's direct intervention not only did they appear as Men, but they would also share their fate concerning death. If their bodies were killed, their spirits would leave the world and come to Eru (as happened with Gandalf), but the spirits of Sauron and the Balrogs were bound to the world as was the fate for all the AÃ*nur.

Makes sense to me. Does that mean their spirits cannot be destroyed and they can somehow return in the future? It seems that Sauron was permanently destroyed, so that doesn't sound right. Did his spirit go to the Halls of Mandos?

[Ulmo]

I disagree with the thought that their deaths are different - why would Sauron and the balrogs' spirits remain in the world? There is no difference in principle with the Istari, no point, and no reason to think they would. Eru permitted the Valar to send emissaries; he did not send them himself.

The balrogs and Sauron could *not* return, whether their spirits remained in Arda or not.

To quote a friend...

Evidently, Melkor could eventually have regenerated to the point of reincarnating himself (were he to enter back into the World), but Sauron could not, after the Ring had been destroyed. Why? Above, Tolkien indicates that it was due to Melkor's relative greatness. Remember also, however, that Sauron's power had been infused into and concentrated within the Ring, and then utterly destroyed with it -- it was actually in creating the Ring that Sauron provided a means for his own defeat. Melkor, on the other hand, disseminated his power throughout all the physical matter of Middle-earth; therefore, as long as Middle-earth existed for him to draw upon, Melkor could not be wholly destroyed in the same manner that Sauron was. Melkor thus guaranteed his persistance, if only as a depleted shadow of his former greatness.

Tolkien wrote, in addition to the passage I quoted earilier:

In any case, in seeking to absorb or rather to infiltrate himself throughout 'matter', what was then left of him was no longer powerful enough to reclothe itself. (It would now remain fixed in the desire to do so: there was no 'repentance' or possibility of it: Melkor had abandoned for ever all 'spiritual' ambitions, and existed almost solely as a desire to possess and dominate matter, and Arda in particular.) At least it could not yet reclothe itself. We need not suppose that Manwë was deluded into supposing that this had been a war to end war, or even to end Melkor. Melkor was not Sauron. We speak of him being 'weakened, shrunken, reduced'; but this is in comparison with the great Valar. He had been a being of immense potency and life. The Elves certainly held and taught that fear or 'spirits' may grow of their own life (independently of the body), even as they may be hurt and healed, be diminished and renewed. The dark spirit of Melkor's 'remainder' might be expected, therefore, eventually and after long ages to increase again, even (as some held) to draw back into itself some of its formerly dissipated power. It would do this (even if Sauron could not) because of its relative greatness.

Morgoth had Middle-earth as his own 'Ring' (noted by the title of the HoME volume) as an "anchor" to rebuild himself upon while Sauron's anchor of the One Ring was destroyed and the balrogs had no anchor to begin with.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Ulmo
Evidently, Melkor could eventually have regenerated to the point of reincarnating himself (were he to enter back into the World), but Sauron could not, after the Ring had been destroyed. Why? Above, Tolkien indicates that it was due to Melkor's relative greatness. Remember also, however, that Sauron's power had been infused into and concentrated within the Ring, and then utterly destroyed with it -- it was actually in creating the Ring that Sauron provided a means for his own defeat. Melkor, on the other hand, disseminated his power throughout all the physical matter of Middle-earth; therefore, as long as Middle-earth existed for him to draw upon, Melkor could not be wholly destroyed in the same manner that Sauron was. Melkor thus guaranteed his persistance, if only as a depleted shadow of his former greatness.

but isn't the Ring made up of gold which is pf course part of the Earth? so upon destroying it, wouldn't the Ring along with the evil/spirit of Sauron bound up with in it, be put back into the EArth?

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Ulmo
I disagree with the thought that their deaths are different - why would Sauron and the balrogs' spirits remain in the world?

Err - because they had descended into the world, and therefore were bound to its existence, as I believe was Eru's only condition for them to dwell within Arda.

There is no difference in principle with the Istari, no point, and no reason to think they would. Eru permitted the Valar to send emissaries; he did not send them himself.

Why are you so sure of this? It is possible that Manwë only followed Eru's advice in this rather than only getting permission (as Manwë followed Eru's advice in other matters too), and that Eru gave the Istari the Gift of Men, no? Or anyway, if it really was the Valar's own idea, Eru could have picked it up and intervened, either from the beginning or at a later time. And Gandalf stated that he "strayed out of thought and time", which suggests to me that he had been outside the physical confines of the world.

[Ulmo]

And Gandalf stated that he "strayed out of thought and time", which suggests to me that he had been outside the physical confines of the world.

I'm fully aware of this, and I agree with it - for the Istari and the other Maiar mentioned here.

However, they were not given the "Gift of Men" - they would not die because disease or other such matters. Exactly like elves, really, except for what happens when they are slain (since elves remain in the world):

. For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies of as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years.

"With the consent of Eru" - not "By the command of Eru"

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Ulmo
I'm fully aware of this, and I agree with it - for the Istari and the other Maiar mentioned here.

Sorry, I just saw what you had written about Gandalf returning from Eru in your first post. But else I don't follow you. Could you please explain again why you think the Maiar are not bound to the world? Do you mean Maiar in general, as opposed to only those Maiar you mentioned? And how does this go together with what is said in the Ainulindale:

Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Ilúvatar beyond the confines of the World; but others, and among them many of the greatest and most fair, took the leave of Ilúvatar and descended into it. But this condition Ilúvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should thenceforward be contained and bounded in the World, to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are its life and it is theirs. And therefore they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World.

I know this only names the Valar, but to me it seems highly unlikely that their followers, the Maiar, should not be subject to the same conditions.

However, they were not given the "Gift of Men" - they would not die because disease or other such matters.

No, they would not be subject to death by desease and such, because of their noble spirits. By the Gift I meant the opportunity to leave the world after death. I see how this does not make any sense to you, since you think they already had this opportunity by being Maiar (at least that's what I think you are saying?). But to me it makes perfectly sense, since I do not think it was possible for any Maiar to go beyond the confines of the world, not even after the destruction of their incarnate forms, if not by direct intervention of Eru.

Yes, this discussion is off topic, but - very interesting!

[Ulmo]

Sorry! Not Maiar in general; only those mentioned here that were incarnate: the Istari, Sauron, the balrogs. Maybe my statements make more sense now? :-)

[Artanis]

It does make more sense - but that isn't to say I necessarily agree with you. I still don't see how Sauron and the balrogs could escape Eru's conditions and leave the world after they were slain, unless Eru should especially permit it, which I see no reason why he should.

[Ulmo]

I still don't see how Sauron and the balrogs could escape Eru's conditions and leave the world after they were slain, unless Eru should especially permit it, which I see no reason why he should.

Because they were bound by the same sort of incarnation; the Istari went to Middle-earth as old men bound to a body - incarnated - until they returned to Valinor upon completion of their task. Sauron and the balrogs were subject to the same thing - they became bound to their bodies. They did so by choice, whether they knew that would happen or not. In choosing this, the consequences are just the same - because they were incarnate and no longer simply 'clothed' in a physical form, they were "subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years" - just as the Istari were. There is, then, no reason to believe that their spirits would act differently as opposed to Saruman and Gandalf.

[Lord Boromir]

My favourite maia is of course Gandalf(he is my 2nd favourite character in all of Tolkien's work, second only after Gollum).