America the Proud?

[Lalaith]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Lalaith - you don't have to be proud of being Austrian, or your country - that is your decision. Personally I don't completely understand it. But I am proud of America - what we have accomplished, I am proud of being American, and I am proud of my ancestors for packing up there life into a small suitcase - getting to a crowded haul of a ship and making their way to Ellis Island to a land they had no idea about. I have just as much a right and a joy to celebrate 4th of July as my friend jason whose family was one of the original founders of Virginia and descendant of Ben Franklin. American history is MY history - I really don't care about Ireland, Russia, Italy, Poland, Czechloslavakia. To me they are foreign countries - I am interested in them as foreign countries - not as MY countries. I'm only one nationality - American. And that's the country I care about the most. And I am proud to be an American.

But what have you done to "deserve" the citizenship. Have you build up the country? That were probably your ancestors and not you. How can you be proud of something that you have put no effort in?
It was just a lucky (for you) coincidence that you were born there and not in Afghanistan.

[Jonathan]

Originally posted by Lalaith
But what have you done to "deserve" the citizenship. Have you build up the country? That were probably your ancestors and not you. How can you be proud of something that you have put no effort in?
It was just a lucky (for you) coincidence that you were born there and not in Afghanistan.

To be proud of uyour country and citizenship doesn't have anything to do with whether or not you 'deserve' your citizenship or not.
You are proud of what your fellow compatriots have accomplished, you are proud of living in the same nation as they do and you are proud of being one of them (doesn't matter if you have not accomplished anything yourself because there is a difference in being proud of your citizenship, and being proud of yourself for something you have done).

[Lizra]

I pay taxes, follow the laws, and vote, Lalaith. My citizenship is a birthright though. I "wasn't" born in Afghanistan, was I! You are who you are...make the most of it while you can!

JD has tirelessly promoted the USA and certainly deserves some kind of red white and blue soapbox award, He's done more than many to "embellish" his birthright as a US citizen. You do not have to "earn" your past, but respecting it would certainly be a nice, appreciative gesture.

[Spock]

"hear, hear".

[Lalaith]

Originally posted by Jonathan
To be proud of uyour country and citizenship doesn't have anything to do with whether or not you 'deserve' your citizenship or not.
You are proud of what your fellow compatriots have accomplished, you are proud of living in the same nation as they do and you are proud of being one of them (doesn't matter if you have not accomplished anything yourself because there is a difference in being proud of your citizenship, and being proud of yourself for something you have done).

Sorry, but I just don't understand this form of pride at all.

Yah, I know, JD is very patriotic.

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by Lizra
I pay taxes, follow the laws, and vote Lalaith

Well, if her avatar is anything to go by, I'll vote Lalaith too

[Sween]

Im just saying about my mum friend she applied to come over for a visting visa or summet and they turned her away! Im sure you do let the odd russian i mean look at Korinikova

[Lizra]

That's funny! (vote Lalaith!) Maybe I better go back with a comma here!

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Lalaith
Sorry, but I just don't understand this form of pride at all.

Yah, I know, JD is very patriotic.

So, what you are saying is that unless a person goes to war and fights for their country, or unless they are serving in the government in some capacity, then, they have no right to be proud of thier country?

Sorry, but if that is the case, it is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

You do not have to be on the front lines of a war, or in a governmental position to be proud of your country. That's like saying: Gee, my kids are great students and accomplished in many things, but I'm not proud, because I didn't do the work. You contributed to their achievements by raising them to be accomplished. Same with pride in ones country. I don't have to Be president, a soldier, or any kind of government leader, for that. Like Lizra said: I pay taxes, follow the laws, and vote. That is a contribution. In the US, it is the people that rule, not the government.

[Spock]

"S.G.H." well said.

[Sween]

I mean i dont play for the England Rugby team but im proud we are the best in the world and i dont play for the English Cricket team either but im still ashamed of them and its a kibda mixed bag for the football team (who lets that Hesky fella near a shirt?)

[Ruinel]

Sween, it's odd that your mother's friend was turned away. The US lets Russian immigrants in daily. That is very odd, indeed.

Originally posted by GrayMouser
There are two different reparation movements- one by some African countries, and that is directed toward European countries as well, and another by African-Americans, and that's purely a US affair- though I think both are wrong.

(Wrong in terms of the justification offered, not wrong in terms of desired results)

IMO, I think we should let the past be the past. Move on to making the future a better place. But no one asked me.

This is opening a can of worms, isn't it. I'd like to know what the justification offered is, if you know it.

Originally posted by Lizra
JD has tirelessly promoted the USA and certainly deserves some kind of red white and blue soapbox award, He's done more than many to "embellish" his birthright as a US citizen. You do not have to "earn" your past, but respecting it would certainly be a nice, appreciative gesture.

I second that motion. As long as JD is around to promote and defend the US, I can kick back and relax. Besides, he seems to be far more informed of US government and history than I ever care to be.

Originally posted by Lalaith
Sorry, but I just don't understand this form of pride at all.

That's ok if you don't understand. I'm proud of the US for things that I didn't do, but others accomplished. And ashamed of some of the things the US has done, though I didn't do them either. When I say the US, I'm speaking of either the people, individuals or as a group, or the government (locally or nationally). (I know I'll probably catch some flack for the 'ashamed' part, but hey, I have to be honest.)

[Lalaith]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
So, what you are saying is that unless a person goes to war and fights for their country, or unless they are serving in the government in some capacity, then, they have no right to be proud of thier country?

Sorry, but if that is the case, it is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

You do not have to be on the front lines of a war, or in a governmental position to be proud of your country. That's like saying: Gee, my kids are great students and accomplished in many things, but I'm not proud, because I didn't do the work. You contributed to their achievements by raising them to be accomplished. Same with pride in ones country. I don't have to Be president, a soldier, or any kind of government leader, for that. Like Lizra said: I pay taxes, follow the laws, and vote. That is a contribution. In the US, it is the people that rule, not the government.

I knew that would come some time.
Well, you raise and educate your children, you have at least a little effect on what they do afterwards.

I didn't say that you don't have the right to be proud, I just don't understand it.

In the US, it is the people that rule, not the government.

And there it is again, what you US citizens do.
IN THE US .... well we have that in Europe too.
You are not the only free people in the world.

There are other people who pay taxes and follow the rules too, but they don't have the citizenship .... so are they not the same just because they were not born there?

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Lalaith
And there it is again, what you US citizens do.
IN THE US .... well we have that in Europe too.
You are not the only free people in the world.

That is true.

I think because the US was founded on personal freedoms that we forget that other countries also have these liberties as well. Take no offense please, Lalaith.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Lalaith
I knew that would come some time.
Well, you raise and educate your children, you have at least a little effect on what they do afterwards.

I didn't say that you don't have the right to be proud, I just don't understand it.

And I don't understand how you feel a person can't be proud of their country.

And there it is again, what you US citizens do.
IN THE US .... well we have that in Europe too.
You are not the only free people in the world.

I realise that we are not the ONLY free people in the world - but our freedoms are GUARANTEED by the Constitution. Like I said - Germany is free - but the government can ban books. England is free - but they can put spy cams all over the place. A city in NJ tried that and the public outcry was so huge that they took them down. No one has tried to challenge the legality of having cameras on the streets in the Supreme Court yet I don't think. The US government was set up to limit the power of the government - to make sure that it can not be used against the people or infringe upon our freedoms.

Is there anything that guarantees in Austria that books won't be banned? I know other European countries routinely ban books - and the people supposedly live in a free country.

There are other people who pay taxes and follow the rules too, but they don't have the citizenship .... so are they not the same just because they were not born there?

They are not the same becuase they are not US citizens. Once they take the US citizenship test and pass and take the oath - they are 100% citizens and are no different. They can then not only be proud of their new country - but proud of themselves for studying and working to become a citizen of the United States of America.

I am proud of this country as a US ciitizen. Like SGH said - the US is not the govenment - the government is the people and the country is the people. As a citizen of this country - I have had an influence on it. I can be proud of what the US has accomplished through the years.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Is there anything that guarantees in Austria that books won't be banned? I know other European countries routinely ban books - and the people supposedly live in a free country.

A 'free' country doesn't signify absolute freedom. No one is absolutely free. European countries may have stricter rules in some fields but that doesn't mean we're worse off.

[Lalaith]

Originally posted by Ruinel
That is true.

I think because the US was founded on personal freedoms that we forget that other countries also have these liberties as well. Take no offense please, Lalaith.

I'm not offended personally. I just realized that I have heard that often enough.
I know that I live in a free country so I actually don't care what others think.

JD, I don't know if you can ban books in Austria (sorry, for my not excisting knowledge, I'll ask my political education teacher in autumn). I can imagine that you can do so.
But I know why books could be banned. You know that Austria has a bad history full of Nazis and all that bad things.
So there are laws that forbid all actions towards that (sorry, I can't explain it better, lack of vocabulary). You are eg not allowed to say that Hitler was good in public, you are not allowed to re-build the SS or the NSDAP or any other political formation who came from Hitler.
So I can imagine that especially books with that topic can be banned.

So we don't understand each other. What's the deal. You have your opinion, I have mine. Okay.
Your opinion - Just a different point of view!

But is it that easy to get the US citizenship? I doubt it.

Maybe we have things the seem to "reduce our freedom", but there other things which I consider much more important and proof of freedom. We have eg a very good social system and many other "free" lands don't have that. If something happens to me I can trust on our system that they will may for the hospital and everything needed.
That's freedom for me. Not to be totally ruined if something unexpected happens.
Do you have a very good social system?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Eärniel
A 'free' country doesn't signify absolute freedom. No one is absolutely free. European countries may have stricter rules in some fields but that doesn't mean we're worse off.

of course not - we all have laws. But why would a government dictate what you can and can not read? Is that freedom? No it's not. What is to prevent the government from coming in and saying that Fantasy books are evil and banning them? or political books that are critical of the country or something? If a government can ban one type of book - they can ban any type of book.

[Lalaith]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
of course not - we all have laws. But why would a government dictate what you can and can not read? Is that freedom? No it's not. What is to prevent the government from coming in and saying that Fantasy books are evil and banning them? or political books that are critical of the country or something? If a government can ban one type of book - they can ban any type of book.

Read my statement above. There I have explained what sort of books are usually banned.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Lalaith
JD, I don't know if you can ban books in Austria (sorry, for my not excisting knowledge, I'll ask my political education teacher in autumn). I can imagine that you can do so.
But I know why books could be banned. You know that Austria has a bad history full of Nazis and all that bad things.
So there are laws that forbid all actions towards that (sorry, I can't explain it better, lack of vocabulary). You are eg not allowed to say that Hitler was good in public, you are not allowed to re-build the SS or the NSDAP or any other political formation who came from Hitler.
So I can imagine that especially books with that topic can be banned.

So we don't understand each other. What's the deal. You have your opinion, I have mine. Okay.
Your opinion - Just a different point of view!

I didn't say we didn't have a difference of opinion. You said you didn't understand how people could be proud of their country - and I countered that with I don't understand how you can't see how they could be.

But is it that easy to get the US citizenship? I doubt it.

It can take years - but it isn't that hard to get US citizenship. We have a million immigrants to this country every year.

U.S. Citizenship Test
US Immigration Center

www.immigration.gov/graphics/services/natz/faq.htm]FAQ About Naturalization

13. How long will it take to become naturalized?


The time it takes to be naturalized varies from one local office to another. In 1997, in many places, it took over 2 years to process an application. The BCIS continues to improve the naturalization process. As of October 2001, the BCIS reported that it takes, on average, between 6 and 9 months to become naturalized.

Maybe we have things the seem to "reduce our freedom", but there other things which I consider much more important and proof of freedom.

You don't concider the government being able to dictate what you can and can not read or sday as a reduction in freedom?

We have eg a very good social system and many other "free" lands don't have that. If something happens to me I can trust on our system that they will may for the hospital and everything needed.
That's freedom for me. Not to be totally ruined if something unexpected happens.
Do you have a very good social system?

That isn't freedom - that's taking money from people who earn it. I don't agree with the socialist forms of government. As for America - we have many social programs however and contrary to everyones belief in the US you do not get turned away from a hospital if you need treatment. Social programs does not bring freedom - look at the soviet Union, Cuba, China, North Korea and all the other communist states. Ask them how much freedom they have.