Pledge of Allegiance

[IronParrot]

As most of you should know, last year, there was a big constitutionality issue in the United States with the whole "under God" bit in the Pledge of Allegiance.

On a point of getting some facts straight re: the current situation, how did that whole thing turn out? Did the appeal go through successfully or something, or did the Supreme Court's decision pass? The whole issue sort of faded away, and I don't know what happened to it... somebody please inform me.

[Coney]

Originally posted by IronParrot
As most of you should know, last year, there was a big constitutionality issue in the United States with the whole "under God" bit in the Pledge of Allegiance.

On a point of getting some facts straight re: the current situation, how did that whole thing turn out? Did the appeal go through successfully or something, or did the Supreme Court's decision pass? The whole issue sort of faded away, and I don't know what happened to it... somebody please inform me.

Ok, will someone help an uneducated Brit here?

What is this pledge of allegiance then?....Is it like when your a witness in court and you swear to tell the truth on the bible?

[HOBBIT]

I think it disappeared because it turns out the father made it up. The girl apparently said the pledge every day and was completely embarassed by the situation.

[IronParrot]

"What is this pledge of allegiance then?....Is it like when your a witness in court and you swear to tell the truth on the bible?"

I'm probably not the best person to answer this, being a Canuckian... but as I understand it, it's a pledge of patriotism that they get kids to recite in schools, like a salute of the flag. I think it's mostly ceremonial, and anthemic in a way. I don't think it's legally binding, though there are certain implications re: treason, etc.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Coney
Ok, will someone help an uneducated Brit here?

What is this pledge of allegiance then?....Is it like when your a witness in court and you swear to tell the truth on the bible?

Merely that: A pledge of allegiance. If I remember correctly:

(Warning: may cause nausea in anti-Americans )

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

[IronParrot]

As far as the whole constitutionality issue goes: being too impatient to wait for a reply here, I decided to look it up myself. About a week ago, the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals decided not to review the ruling, upholding it instead. It's likely going to the Supreme Court.

So apparently, it's still an issue. I'd actually misunderstood it a bit... I thought it was a Supreme Court deal from the beginning. Hopefully the ruling is upheld...

[Coney]

Originally posted by IronParrot
I'm probably not the best person to answer this, being a Canuckian... but as I understand it, it's a pledge of patriotism that they get kids to recite in schools, like a salute of the flag. I think it's mostly ceremonial, and anthemic in a way. I don't think it's legally binding, though there are certain implications re: treason, etc.

Ah right, thanks folks

I'd heard of it but was never sure in which context it was used.

[IronParrot]

What I still don't understand is the extent of such a ruling's effect... whether they're challenging the recital of the Pledge, period, or just for the removal of the "under God" bit (which was an addition in the '50s born out of anti-communist furor). It's a bit muddled on both sides.

[Elven Archer]

I think they should just leave it alone, it's fine the way it is. If they take "under God" out of the pledge then what's that saying about our nation? They might as well take "In God We Trust" off the money too. This country was started by people wanting to worship God in their own way. i think that's right, the Quakers came over to worship God freely and then more and more people came and gradually we became a free country. If people don't want to say that part then they don't have to. just like in school when our science books talked about evolution and stuff we just skipped it.

[azalea]

I'm pretty sure it's just the "under God" part. What HOBBIT said is correct, the father had an agenda for which he used his daughter (great guy, I'm sure ). As far as I know, kids have a right not to say the pledge, for instance in the case of non-US citizens living here. I don't think it's a punishable offense not to say it, but if an issue is made of it, I'm sure it would be a problem.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Elven Archer
I think they should just leave it alone, it's fine the way it is. If they take "under God" out of the pledge then what's that saying about our nation? They might as well take "In God We Trust" off the money too. This country was started by people wanting to worship God in their own way. i think that's right, the Quakers came over to worship God freely and then more and more people came and gradually we became a free country. If people don't want to say that part then they don't have to. just like in school when our science books talked about evolution and stuff we just skipped it.

Yes, it sometimes seems the government is very concerned about avoiding offending anyone except Christians...

[jerseydevil]

It's the "Under God" part that is the issue. Through the years parents have argued that it is unconstitutional to make their children say the "Pledge" period - but those never went very far.

Sticking to Pledge Decision
Appeals Court Refuses to Reconsider Controversial ‘Under God’ Ruling

S A N F R A N C I S C O, Feb. 28 — A federal appeals court today rejected the Bush administration's request to reconsider its decision that the Pledge of Allegiance is unconstitutional because of the phrase "under God."

The ruling means the case could go to the Supreme Court. In Washington, a Justice Department spokesman said no decision has been made about whether to appeal the ruling there.

The 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals said it would not accept any other petitions to reconsider last June's ruling by a three-judge panel that the pledge is unconstitutional when recited in public classrooms.

Ruling on a lawsuit brought by Sacramento atheist Michael Newdow, the court panel decided 2-1 that Newdow's daughter should not be subjected to the words "under God" at her public school.

The court said the phrase was an endorsement of God, and the Constitution forbids public schools or other governmental entities from endorsing religion.

Pressure From President, Congress
President Bush and Congress immediately condemned the decision, which would prevent public schoolchildren from reciting the pledge in the nine Western states covered by the nation's largest — and, critics charge, most liberal — appeals court.

Those states are Alaska, Arizona, California, Hawaii, Idaho, Montana, Nevada, Oregon and Washington.

Newdow's lawsuit began as a challenge to a 1954 decision by Congress to add the words "under God" to the pledge. The lawsuit later sidestepped into a parental rights case over a custody dispute between Newdow and his 8-year-old child's mother, Sandra Banning of Elk Grove.

In response to the court's original ruling, Banning asserted that her daughter is not harmed by reciting the pledge and is not opposed to God. Banning, who now has legal custody of the child, urged the court to consider whether Newdow even had legal standing to bring the case on behalf of his daughter. The court said Newdow did have such legal standing

I personally think it's a stupid lawsuit. It's not a prayer and his child is free to not say the "Under God" part. The founding fathers were all religious and religion was a big part of the founding of this country. I do not agree with formal prayers being lead in schools though.

IP-
Why do you think that it should be upheld? I've gone both ways with it. We also have the song "God Bless America" This is a song that we always sang in school - even when I went to public school...

God Bless America.
Land that I love
Stand beside her, and guide her
Thru the night with a light from above.
From the mountains, to the prairies ,
To the oceans, white with foam
God bless America
My home sweet home.

God Bless America,
Land that I love
Stand beside her,
And guide her,
Through the night
With the light from above,
From the mountains,
To the prairies,
To the ocean,
White with foam,
God bless America,
My home sweet home.
God bless America,
My home sweet home.

If you want to hear what the song sounds like go to this page from my Twin Towers page...American s and the World Join Together

I know, as GW said, this patriotism probably really annoys any anti-american people out there or people who don't understand America's patriotism - but this is who we are.

[jerseydevil]

Many people have argued that America the Beautiful should be our National Anthem. The latest uproar for getting the change came right after 9/11. I'm against changing our National Anthem - not because of the repeated mentions of God - but because I like the Star Spangled Banner. I think the Star Spangled Banner represents the strength of our country. Others argue that America the Beautiful represents the beauty of America more, whereas they say the Star Spangled Banner is a war song.

America the Beautiful - 1913

O beautiful for spacious skies,
For amber waves of grain,
For purple mountain majesties
Above the fruited plain!
America! America!
God shed his grace on thee
And crown thy good with brotherhood
From sea to shining sea!

O beautiful for pilgrim feet
Whose stern, impassioned stress
A thoroughfare for freedom beat
Across the wilderness!
America! America!
God mend thine every flaw,
Confirm thy soul in self-control,
Thy liberty in law!

O beautiful for heroes proved In liberating strife.
Who more than self the country loved
And mercy more than life!
America! America!
May God thy gold refine
Till all success be nobleness
And every gain divine!

O beautiful for patriot dream
That sees beyond the years
Thine alabaster cities gleam
Undimmed by human tears!
America! America!
God shed his grace on thee
And crown thy good with brotherhood
From sea to shining sea!

O beautiful for halcyon skies,
For amber waves of grain,
For purple mountain majesties
Above the enameled plain!
America! America!
God shed his grace on thee
Till souls wax fair as earth and air
And music-hearted sea!

O beautiful for pilgrims feet,
Whose stern impassioned stress
A thoroughfare for freedom beat
Across the wilderness!
America ! America !
God shed his grace on thee
Till paths be wrought through
wilds of thought
By pilgrim foot and knee!

O beautiful for glory-tale
Of liberating strife
When once and twice,
for man's avail
Men lavished precious life !
America! America!
God shed his grace on thee
Till selfish gain no longer stain
The banner of the free!

O beautiful for patriot dream
That sees beyond the years
Thine alabaster cities gleam
Undimmed by human tears!
America! America!
God shed his grace on thee
Till nobler men keep once again
Thy whiter jubilee!

To hear the melody - you can listen to it from "Scout Songs" page - America the Beautiful

[jerseydevil]

Here is another very popular Patriotic song...

America

My country, 'tis of Thee,
Sweet Land of Liberty
Of thee I sing;
Land where my fathers died,
Land of the pilgrims' pride,
From every mountain side
Let Freedom ring.

My native country, thee,
Land of the noble free,
Thy name I love;
I love thy rocks and rills,
Thy woods and templed hills,
My heart with rapture thrills
Like that above.

Let music swell the breeze,
And ring from all the trees
Sweet Freedom's song;
Let mortal tongues awake;
Let all that breathe partake;
Let rocks their silence break,
The sound prolong.

Our fathers' God to Thee,
Author of Liberty,
To thee we sing,
Long may our land be bright
With Freedom's holy light,
Protect us by thy might
Great God, our King.

Our glorious Land to-day,
'Neath Education's sway,
Soars upward still.
Its hills of learning fair,
Whose bounties all may share,
Behold them everywhere
On vale and hill!

Thy safeguard, Liberty,
The school shall ever be,
Our Nation's pride!
No tyrant hand shall smite,
While with encircling might
All here are taught the Right
With Truth allied.

Beneath Heaven's gracious will
The stars of progress still
Our course do sway;
In unity sublime
To broader heights we climb,
Triumphant over Time,
God speeds our way!

Grand birthright of our sires,
Our altars and our fires
Keep we still pure!
Our starry flag unfurled,
The hope of all the world,
In peace and light impearled,
God hold secure!

Although we only ever sang the first verse really.

This is another song...

God Bless America

God Bless America.
Land that I love
Stand beside her, and guide her
Thru the night with a light from above.
From the mountains, to the prairies ,
To the oceans, white with foam
God bless America
My home sweet home."

this is just a sampling of our MANY Patriotic songs that we sing during 4th of July and we used to sing things during special occasions in school - such as Washington's Birthday.

There are other songs too - such as "When the Saints Come Marching In" and the "Battle Hyme of the Republic"

This is the Marines Hymm

From the Halls of Montezuma
To the shores of Tripoli
We fight our country's battles
In the air, on land, and sea.
First to fight for right and freedom
And to keep our honor clean;
We are proud to claim the title
Of United States Marines.

Our flag's unfurled to every breeze
From dawn to setting sun;
We have fought in every clime and place
Where we could take a gun.
In the snow of far-off Northern lands
And in sunny tropic scenes;
You will find us always on the job --
The United States Marines.

Here's health to you and to our Corps
Which we are proud to serve;
In many a strife we've fought for life
And never lost our nerve.
If the Army and the Navy
Ever look on Heaven's scenes,
They will find the streets are guarded
By United States Marines.

here are some sites -

Patriotic Songs
Fifties Web - Patriotic Songs
Patriotic & Inspirational Songs Of America
United States Of America: Traditional & Patriotic Tunes
Large list of Patriotic Songs

[HOBBIT]

Who asked for patriotic songs? The law in NJ is that students have to stand up during the pledge but you do not have to say it. Not too many ppl do - although lately more ppl in my homeroom have started. You are supposed to look at the flag even if you don't say it - but you don't legally have to.


This year I haven't really been saying it. They've forced me to do it since kindergarten, and I have the right not to say it. It doesn't mean i'm not patriotic or i dont love my country - i love my country. I just don't like saying the pledge. I'm tired of it I like expressing my rights given to me from this great nation.

Also, almost no one takes it seriously. In all my past years of school the pledge has been a mumble, sometimes for fun and for a joke (not for love of the pledge) they will say it loudly. The pledge has become ROUTINE. People DO NOT THINK WHY WE ARE SAYING IT. That is why I usually don't say it anymore. I just stand respectfully looking at the flag. Its just part of the boring morning now.


I don't really care, but the words "under god" should be taken out. You could definately make a case for it.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by HOBBIT
Who asked for patriotic songs?

I was making a point of how many patirotic songs include God, Heaven, Lord in them - including the song that hs repeatedly come up as the replacement for the Star Spangled Banner as the National Anthem.

Sorry you couldn't see the point I was making.

The law in NJ is that students have to stand up during the pledge but you do not have to say it. Not too many ppl do - although lately more ppl in my homeroom have started. You are supposed to look at the flag even if you don't say it - but you don't legally have to.

This year I haven't really been saying it. They've forced me to do it since kindergarten, and I have the right not to say it. It doesn't mean i'm not patriotic or i dont love my country - i love my country. I just don't like saying the pledge. I'm tired of it I like expressing my rights given to me from this great nation.

Also, almost no one takes it seriously. In all my past years of school the pledge has been a mumble, sometimes for fun and for a joke (not for love of the pledge) they will say it loudly. The pledge has become ROUTINE. People DO NOT THINK WHY WE ARE SAYING IT. That is why I usually don't say it anymore. I just stand respectfully looking at the flag. Its just part of the boring morning now.

I don't really care, but the words "under god" should be taken out. You could definately make a case for it.

That's exactly why that suggestion they made about people reciting the Preamble to the Declaration of Independence was stupid. It won't be surprising - that I always said the Pledge - never took it as a joke or anything. I think that if you support your country you should say it - without joking around. I don't really care if people say the "Under God" part though.

[IronParrot]

I'm perfectly aware that a student in question is free not to say the "under God" bit. However, whether or not students are sufficiently educated regarding their right to do so is a different issue entirely... and peer pressure just opens up a whole other can of worms.

I'm also aware of the song "God Bless America" (and in fact, remember it being sung on the steps of Congress on September 11th). Regarding national anthems and the like, the English translated version of the Canadian anthem also contains references to God, and nobody really sees it as an issue.

However, there's a fundamental difference between glorifying the nation through song, which is all patriotic and everything, and the very idea of a "pledge".

All those songs of patriotism, etc. take America from the angle of a national entity, in terms of culture, heritage and what it stands for. They call for God's blessings and they praise God's grace, but never do they imply state sponsorship of Him, nor do they imply the homogeneity of "one nation under God." The Pledge of Allegiance is inherently political, with its focus on the Republic. There's a difference between church-nation separation and church-state separation.

I would say that the religiosity of the founding fathers doesn't imply that the country must remain somewhat religious in nature... from an outsider's point of view, I don't think American cultural identity is any longer derived from religious lines. It certainly shouldn't be, anyway, considering the cultural diversity that exists within the country.

Really, it's a matter of defaults. The status quo: the Pledge includes "under God", and you can omit that if you want to. What it should be like is that it doesn't include a theistic reference, but you can include it if you want to. Some atheists are obviously offended by the status quo. With the other case, you can't say that it's offending Christians or anything, because it doesn't make sense to be offended by an ambiguous omission. It's a minor change, and it's true that the pledge is still nothing more than a pledge, but if it's such a trivial point - then what's wrong with changing it?

As trivial as such a lawsuit may be, I agree fully with the ruling that it's unconstitutional. Does it really matter, either way? Not a whole lot, but maybe that's exactly why the ruling should stand. The only reason why the whole God bit was there in the first place was to distinguish good Christian Americans from those atheistic communist pigdogs, and that McCarthyist line of thought has long since subsided (I really hope so, anyway).

I'm not fundamentally anti-American, as I might seem, or overly PC. I don't have a problem with Americans showing their devoted patriotism as long as it doesn't fly in the face of their good senses. However, if there's one thing I really stand behind, it's the separation of church and state - not just in America, but anywhere.

[HOBBIT]

It shouldn't be a "if you like your country you should say it" thinking that there is something wrong with a person who doesnt say it that does like his country is going against all the basic rights we get from it.

for the songs - all you had to say is "many other patriotic songs have references to god" i understood that as why you were doing it. Didn't need the two long posts with lyrics we already know and all those sites - too much info.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by IronParrot
I'm perfectly aware that a student in question is free not to say the "under God" bit. However, whether or not students are sufficiently educated regarding their right to do so is a different issue entirely... and peer pressure just opens up a whole other can of worms.

I'm also aware of the song "God Bless America" (and in fact, remember it being sung on the steps of Congress on September 11th). Regarding national anthems and the like, the English translated version of the Canadian anthem also contains references to God, and nobody really sees it as an issue.

However, there's a fundamental difference between glorifying the nation through song, which is all patriotic and everything, and the very idea of a "pledge".

All those songs of patriotism, etc. take America from the angle of a national entity, in terms of culture, heritage and what it stands for. They call for God's blessings and they praise God's grace, but never do they imply state sponsorship of Him, nor do they imply the homogeneity of "one nation under God." The Pledge of Allegiance is inherently political, with its focus on the Republic. There's a difference between church-nation separation and church-state separation.

I would say that the religiosity of the founding fathers doesn't imply that the country must remain somewhat religious in nature... from an outsider's point of view, I don't think American cultural identity is any longer derived from religious lines. It certainly shouldn't be, anyway, considering the cultural diversity that exists within the country.

Really, it's a matter of defaults. The status quo: the Pledge includes "under God", and you can omit that if you want to. What it should be like is that it doesn't include a theistic reference, but you can include it if you want to. Some atheists are obviously offended by the status quo. With the other case, you can't say that it's offending Christians or anything, because it doesn't make sense to be offended by an ambiguous omission. It's a minor change, and it's true that the pledge is still nothing more than a pledge, but if it's such a trivial point - then what's wrong with changing it?

As trivial as such a lawsuit may be, I agree fully with the ruling that it's unconstitutional. Does it really matter, either way? Not a whole lot, but maybe that's exactly why the ruling should stand. The only reason why the whole God bit was there in the first place was to distinguish good Christian Americans from those atheistic communist pigdogs, and that McCarthyist line of thought has long since subsided (I really hope so, anyway).

I'm not fundamentally anti-American, as I might seem, or overly PC. I don't have a problem with Americans showing their devoted patriotism as long as it doesn't fly in the face of their good senses. However, if there's one thing I really stand behind, it's the separation of church and state - not just in America, but anywhere.

Well I'm for the seperation of church and state - I'm even atheist. But God is part of the heritage of this country. If the "Under God" is removed form the pledge - then what about "In God We Trust" which is on our currency.

I'm against school led prayers - I just don't really think that "Under God" is any big thing.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by HOBBIT
It shouldn't be a "if you like your country you should say it" thinking that there is something wrong with a person who doesnt say it that does like his country is going against all the basic rights we get from it.

I really don't care if you say it or not. But if you aren't respectful while saying the Pledge or don't say it at all - then that also says things. Most people aren't going to say "well he's just standing up for his rights". It's your right not to say it for whatever reasons.

In our schools we had to say it and I wouldn't have thought of not saying it. When I was in 1st grade though - I didn't say the Our Father in church and my parents made me write it a number of times when I got home. We weren't even that religious. I guess I enjoyed being patriotic more than being religious.

for the songs - all you had to say is "many other patriotic songs have references to god" i understood that as why you were doing it. Didn't need the two long posts with lyrics we already know and all those sites - too much info.

Maybe I just wanted to annoy people that are bothered by America's patriotism. And a lot of people from Europe don't know all the songs anyway.