Your thoughts on animal rights

[BeardofPants]

I just thought of something else.

In New Zealand, the state often buys out farmers who have wetland niches on their land. This is also true of coastal regions, that contribute to marine reserves. There should be more funding to this sort of thing.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
However, given the choice between a species dying out, and being lost forever, and someone losing profit, well, I'd go with the species that is dying out. BUT, I think that in cases like this, there should be some kind of state funding that could be used to help out the persons effected, judged on a case by case scenario. Obviously, a corporation could afford to sink costs a little better than say a farmer, who loses his land.

Why do you think that? All either one does is pass their cost onto the end user. Do you think that when people steal from a store that they just eat that? No - the cost gets passed onto the consumer. Also - where does the government get their money from - from tax payers. So then what you're saying is that we should be taxed because some company wants to plant something in the Amazon and can't - or some farmer is going to be kicked off his farm because an endangered field mouse is found living there. There has to be a better way.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
There has to be a better way.

I hope so.


I'm just stating my opinion though. I'd rather pay higher taxes to work with what we've got, than pander to the corporations. That's just me. *shrug*

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
I just thought of something else.

In New Zealand, the state often buys out farmers who have wetland niches on their land. This is also true of coastal regions, that contribute to marine reserves. There should be more funding to this sort of thing.

We have something similar - not necessarily to protect a particular animal - but to protect the wilderness and farms of NJ as a whole.

Since 1961, the NJDEP Green Acres Program has protected more than 471,291 acres of open space and developed hundreds of public parks, bringing the statewide system of preserved open space and farmland to more than 1,144,871 acres.

Green Acres uses public funds (bond issues and legislatively dedicated open space funds) to support land protection and park development throughout the State. Green Acres provides funding through the State Land Acquisition Program, the Local Assistance Program and the Nonprofit Assistance Program.

The State Land Acquisition Program preserves land through purchase in fee, conservation easements, and donations. This land becomes part of New Jersey's system of state parks and forests, natural areas, and wildlife management areas. The State targets land along waterways, environmentally sensitive land, recreational land, trails and trail connectors, historic resources, land adjacent to State open space holdings, and land that links protected green spaces to support a green infrastructure in New Jersey.

The Local Assistance Program provides funds to help local governments preserve open space and develop parks. Local government acquisitions are funded with grants and loans. Park development projects are funded with grants and loans for Urban Aid developments, and loan funding for non-urban projects.

The Nonprofit Assistance Program provides matching grant funding for land acquisition to qualifying nonprofit organizations. Additionally, matching funds are provided to nonprofit organizations for park development in urban aid municipalities.

Green Acres Land Acquisition and Park Development: Acres and Expenditures May 1, 1997 - September 30, 2001

[emplynx]

KILL THE BABIES! SAVE THE WHALES!
Honistly, animal rightes are redicuolious. Think of you favorite animal. How would you feel is a *insert favorite animal here* was being born and during the birth process, the doctor jammed some sissors into the animals skull and made a hole, and then used a vacuum-like device to suck it's brains out? Well, it happens to human babies every day...
http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/ASMF/asmf10.html

[BeardofPants]

And as per usual Emplynx comes along, oversimplifies everything, and drags everything off topic.

*Insert suitable flame here.*

[Earniel]

Me thinks that Emplynx and JD only know the extreme environmentalists. No offence meant but there are a lot more of honest environmentalists who devote their lives to protect biodiversity without infringing on the livelyhood of the human population. Don't judge them all because of a couple of fanatics.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Eärniel
Me thinks that Emplynx and JD only know the extreme environmentalists. No offence meant but there are a lot more of honest environmentalists who devote their lives to protect biodiversity without infringing on the livelyhood of the human population. Don't judge them all because of a couple of fanatics.

I'm not. I consider myself an "environmentalist". But I'm balanced. I don't consider it an environment or nothing attitude like other people. For instance I get my electricity from Green Mountain and I recycle. But I also don't agree with outlawing SUVs - although I think they're gas guzzling monstrosaties. If everyone did even a little bit - by not littering and trying to reduce their own pollution - then we wouldn't need so many regulations on things.

But in my opinion Green Peace is too fanatical and Sierra Club can be very fanatical too - especially in the west.

[Spock]

As a human animal, I think all other animals have the right to be served with the proper sauce.

[Elvellon]

All either one does is pass their cost onto the end user. Do you think that when people steal from a store that they just eat that? No - the cost gets passed onto the consumer. Also - where does the government get their money from - from tax payers. So then what you're saying is that we should be taxed because some company wants to plant something in the Amazon and can't - or some farmer is going to be kicked off his farm because an endangered field mouse is found living there. There has to be a better way.

So what we have in the end?

Costs, anyway you see it.
If you do protect the environment, we have to pay for it (as consumers and tax payers)
If you don’t protect the environment, we have to pay to clean the mess afterwards (as taxpayers, consumers or worse, with our health).

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Elvellon
So what we have in the end?

Costs, anyway you see it.
If you do protect the environment, we have to pay for it (as consumers and tax payers)
If you don’t protect the environment, we have to pay to clean the mess afterwards (as taxpayers, consumers or worse, with our health).

Well Oregon wants to put a mileage tax in place - which I was and am very much against. Yearly they would record the cars mileage and the owner would be charged for how much they drove. Some people have to drive to get to work - or drive on vacation. Oregon already has some of the highest gas prices in the country. Portland's public transportation system sucks (even though it's endorsed by the Sierra Club) - so you have to use your car. Portland also has the 7th worst traffic in the country. New York doesn't even make the top 10.

Government regulation on everything isn't always the way to go - as Portland so plainly demostrates. It develps HUGE inefficient and expensive bureaucracies.

New Jersey and several other northeast states are in lawsuits against several midwest states for the pollution that their power plants produce. Many people around the country feels that New Jersey is a highly polluted state - they don't realise that 1/3 of all our pllution comes from the power plants west of us.

The six Midwest states of Minnesota,Wisconsin, Michigan, Illinois, Indiana and Ohio, described in this report, bear a special responsibility. These six states are home to 140 CO2 producing power plants that annually release about two percent of the planet’s total man-made CO2 , eight percent of the nation’s total man-made CO2 , and 25 percent of the CO2 released by power plants in the U.S. Two major Midwest power companies – American Electric Power and Cinergy – each contribute two and one percent of the nation’s total manmade CO2 emissions respectively. If the Midwest leads the U.S. in curbing its substantial electricity-related CO2 emissions, we can begin to steer our country’s course towards a solution that will benefit the Midwest and people around the world.

Climate Change and Midwest Power Plants

Few of us think about our use of electricity in environmental terms. Yet from the perspective of overall environmental quality, these decisions are among the most important that we make. Power plants account for between one-fourth and two-thirds of the air pollutants that threaten public health, unleash acid rain and contribute to global warming. Of America's top fifty individual sources for three major air pollutants, all but one are power plants.

...

Aging Midwest power plants take advantage of their looser standards to steal markets from cleaner neighboring systems, and then add insult to injury by polluting the neighbors' air. Increasingly, Congressmen and Governors from the injured states are resisting this kind of unfair competition and pollution dumping. They are asking Congress to make sure that everybody who is out prospecting for electricity sales is following the same environmental rules.

...

In addition to supporting responsible state and federal action, individual electricity users can attack power plant pollution more directly. In many states, one feature of the new electricity reforms is the ability for the first time to choose your electricity supplier. Customers will be able to replace their traditional utility with a new supplier, and they will be able to shop around for electricity sources that minimize pollution.

....

The Natural Resources Defense Council recently ranked the nation's power plant owners by carbon dioxide emissions per dollar of revenue, focusing on the pollutant that dominates the international campaign against global warming (carbon dioxide). The biggest emitters produced more than twenty times as much pollution per dollar of sales as the utilities at the head of the NRDC list. Measured by this ratio, companies like Public Service of Indiana, Ohio Power, Oregon's Pacificorp and the Tennessee Valley Authority emitted more than ten times as much carbon dioxide as the Bonneville Power Administration, California's Pacific Gas & Electric Company, Connecticut Light and Power, Boston Edison, San Diego Gas & Electric, the New York Power Authority and New York City's Consolidated Edison.

All Electricity is Not Created Equal
Efforts to bring competition to utility industry mean that both government and consumers can act to ensure cleaner power

[jerseydevil]

This is one of the reasons I'm against electric cars. True the cars aren't producing pollution - but the power plants that produce the electricity to recharge the batteries do. All electric cars do is just pass the pollution on to the power plants - where most people don't see it. Hybrid cars (such as the Honda Civic Hybrid)- although still using gas for some power - recharge their own batteries (they never have to be plugged in). See how it works at How Things Work website. Once the technology improves - the cars will come down in price. However, I don't think they are out of range (the Honda Civic Hybrid starts at $19,500) - considering the tax rebates and the savings in gas.

People also don't have to buy SUVs that only need to conform to truck regulations that get 20mpg versus a car which is required to get 27mpg. Everyone that has an SUV or truck has chosen to ignore the fact that they are polluting the environment.

I choose to pay extra to have nonpolluting electricity. New Jersey has given me the choice through the New Jersey Energy Choice Program and I have chosen. Many others - if they truly care about the environment can do the same or similar things. People don't have to be dictated to by the government. Also - New Jersey as well as the federal government give tax deductions for buying alternative fuel vehicles - Alt. Fuel Vehicle Rebate.

Green Mountain just opened up a new solar farm in New Jersey last month. It's on top of the roof of a Home Depot or similar store. This is a good use of wasted roof space and it means that trees and land does not have to be destroyed to make way for solar farms.

[Blackheart]

Animals have the right to be eaten.

And skinned. And subjected to tests.

Humans are animals.

yum.

[Elvellon]

JD, That reminds me how some extremist “ecologists” can be illogical. Around here we use dams to produce most our electric power (we actually export some of it to our neighbouring country, Spain). It is clean, non-polluting, and also allows us to make good water reserves. It would be expected they would see it at the very least as the “less evil” way of producing electricity right? Well, now they complain how the dams disrupt natural equilibrium, and demand they stop being built, and some even demand that a number of dams should be dismantled. Frankly, give me a break.

[emplynx]

Originally posted by Spock
As a human animal, I think all other animals have the right to be served with the proper sauce.

I like cats, lets exchange recipes!

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Elvellon
JD, That reminds me how some extremist “ecologists” can be illogical. Around here we use dams to produce most our electric power (we actually export some of it to our neighbouring country, Spain). It is clean, non-polluting, and also allows us to make good water reserves. It would be expected they would see it at the very least as the “less evil” way of producing electricity right? Well, now they complain how the dams disrupt natural equilibrium, and demand they stop being built, and some even demand that a number of dams should be dismantled. Frankly, give me a break.

That's the SAME exact thing that is happening in Oregon. Now the environmentalists are complaining that the dams are ruining the salmon runs. They've also demanded that some be removed and stop building new ones.

Dams are a major destroyer of salmon
During their downstream migration to the ocean, salmon are often killed by turbines or dam sluices. The slow water behind a dam makes fish more vulnerable to predators.

Official figures from the Northwest Power Planning Council indicate that the Columbia River dams kill the equivalent of between five million and 11 million adult salmon every year. Dams on the Columbia River, alone, have closed off 4000 miles of salmon habitat. The construction of the John Day Dam flooded the spawning ground of 30,000 fall chinook. Efforts to remove dams are finding more and more support as fish stocks continue to dwindle.

The Northwest Fisheries

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
But in my opinion Green Peace is too fanatical ...

I'm a greenpeace member. Not all of us a fanatical, thank you very much.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
I'm a greenpeace member. Not all of us a fanatical, thank you very much.

I know you're a Green Peace member As I said - they're fanatical.

[BeardofPants]

I shall forevermore remember this moment of generalisation. And when I get to New Jersey I shall burn down your appartment. In an environmentally friendly way of course.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
I shall forevermore remember this moment of generalisation. And when I get to New Jersey I shall burn down your appartment. In an environmentally friendly way of course.

Well just as long as it's an environmentally friendly fire.