Is bringing the Elves to Valinor wrong?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

So how about this new way to look at it:
The decision to bring Elves into Valinor IN ITSELF was not wrong. But because of the Elves' shortcomings, some of them stayed back in ME and thus the Elves were divided. This created the estrangement between them. Afterwards, the Valar learn that a Great Journey where ALL of the people involved would actually go along to Valinor is just not possible, so they decide not to bring Men into Valinor, and the rest is history...

Great short summary but I disagree with you on one thing. You said 'Afterwards, the Valar learn that a Great Journey where ALL of the people involved would actually go along to Valinor is just not possible, so they decide not to bring Men into Valinor.' I disagree with this. Valinor was a land of no death. Men were mortal and doomed to die. This I think is why men never went to Valinor.

[Beren3000]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Men were mortal and doomed to die. This I think is why men never went to Valinor.

Yeah, I think you're probably right. That's why they imposed on the Numenoreans the Ban of the Valar. But, IMO, the Valar imposed that Ban ALSO in order not to have the scenario with the Noldor repeated.

[Durin1]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

So how about this new way to look at it:
The decision to bring Elves into Valinor IN ITSELF was not wrong. But because of the Elves' shortcomings, some of them stayed back in ME and thus the Elves were divided. This created the estrangement between them. Afterwards, the Valar learn that a Great Journey where ALL of the people involved would actually go along to Valinor is just not possible, so they decide not to bring Men into Valinor, and the rest is history...

Firstly, Tolkien himself, in Morgoth's Ring, states that fundamentally the decision by the Valar to bring the Elves to Aman was a mistake (there's also a short essay where Eru is speaking to Manwe and points this out).

Secondly, what shortcomings? The Elves had every right to do what they wanted. It wasn't a summons as such, it was an offer.

The decision for not bringing Men to Aman has nothing to do with the Great Journey. Men were to be the dominant race (eventually) in ME, as heard in parts during the Music. Also, Melkor Morgoth had been released from captivity before Men awoke and had slain the two trees and returned back to ME, which again was becoming a dangerous place. They would have had no intention of bringing Men to Aman.

[Manveru]

Hey guys,
I don't think the Valar were doing there jobs at all. Maybe in the beginning but they only interfered in ME when there were huge problems. They didn't really take thought for the future. When they captured Melkor before the coming of the elves they didn't search his fortress and get all of Melkor's servants. And after they defeated Melkor and thrust him into the void they let Melkor's man allies go into the east and corrupt all of the neutral men.
But anyway, I think instead bringing the elves to Valinor they could have encouraged them to live along the coasts of Beleriand and visit them often to make sure that when Melkor was set free he wouldn't corrupt them. This way Elves and Valar could have worked together to make ME better, and prepare it for the coming of Men.

[Ælfwine]

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

Another way to look at it would be this:

Inviting the Elves to Valinor was not entirely wrong. But the creation of Valinor itself was a mistake, and abandoning the rest of Middle Earth was clearly wrong on behalf of the Valar.

If they weren't going to do their job, they should have at least stopped at preventing the Children of Eru from being able to live as their creator intended.

This I can agree with, but also as Durin1 stated:

Firstly, Tolkien himself, in Morgoth's Ring, states that fundamentally the decision by the Valar to bring the Elves to Aman was a mistake (there's also a short essay where Eru is speaking to Manwe and points this out).

So IMO, the bottom line is that the Valar forgot about their responsibility for the whole of Arda, and became too focused on their own well-being. And later on, their "feelings was so hurt" that they left Middle-earth to Melkor/Morgoth, which as Durin1 said Ilúvatar told Manwë.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Ælfwine

So IMO, the bottom line is that the Valar forgot about their responsibility for the whole of Arda, and became too focused on their own well-being. And later on, their "feelings was so hurt" that they left Middle-earth to Melkor/Morgoth, which as Durin1 said Ilúvatar told Manwë.

Kinda like what I always say:

"If you wanna be a god, you better start actin' like it!"

[Ælfwine]

I've tried acting like one for ages, but I am still not one..

[Durin1]

I think i'm a god

On a serious note:

Perhaps the Valar failed slightly in their faith in Iluvatar. I haven't got the bok to hand but, in Morgoth's Ring, doesn't Iluvatar admonish Manwe because they failed to put enough faith in his (and their own) powers to ensure that whatever happended, Iluvatar would not let Melkor's destructive nature destroy His habitation for His Children?

[Ælfwine]

Yes, I think it is in Laws and Customs among the Eldar. I don't have the book handy at the moment either, or I could give you the right quote.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Where does Iluvatar's culpability come in to play in all this? Only he was responsible for the creation and time of awakening of the Firstborn. Perhaps had he and the Valar taken care of business before their awakening, ME would have been a suitable dwelling and the Valar would have had no need to fear for the Elves and their safety and therefore there would have been no need to invite them to Valinor. Perhaps Iluvatar's timing on their awakening was bad. They were born into too many already existing messes that the Powers should have cleaned up before they awoke.

[Durin1]

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

Where does Iluvatar's culpability come in to play in all this? Only he was responsible for the creation and time of awakening of the Firstborn. Perhaps had he and the Valar taken care of business before their awakening, ME would have been a suitable dwelling and the Valar would have had no need to fear for the Elves and their safety and therefore there would have been no need to invite them to Valinor. Perhaps Iluvatar's timing on their awakening was bad. They were born into too many already existing messes that the Powers should have cleaned up before they awoke.

That's one perspective that I hadn't thought of! Although here's my thoughts on this:

Iluvatar brings into being the results of the Music. He then empowers the Valar to prepare and govern Arda in readiness for the Children. He does not directly play a part in the world until the drowning of Numenor (in the physical sense), if I recall. Hence, it is upto the Valar, not Iluvatar himself to "take care of business".

Also, many ages pass between the making of the world, its fashioning and the strifes between Melkor and the other Valar (throwing down of the lamps, moving from Almaren etc etc, not to mention all the "quiet" periods. So how could it be bad timing? The Valar should have made war upon Melkor sooner (so says Iluvatar) and they shouldn't have brought them to Valinor: as Iluvatar had intended for them to live in the lands of their awakening. A few times in the Sil we have hints that the Valar anticipate the awakening of the Elves, and yet they still delay. How could Iluvatar be culpable for that?

The Valar not only wanted to protect the Elves, they wanted to "enjoy" their company. The fact that Melkor had been captured should have also provided the Valar the impetus to provide some sort of protection for the elves living in the lands of their birth.

BTW, Iluvatar's culpability could infer too broad a context. It'll probably involve theological dicussions of the origins of evil etc etc!

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally Posted by Durin1

That's one perspective that I hadn't thought of! Although here's my thoughts on this:

Iluvatar brings into being the results of the Music. He then empowers the Valar to prepare and govern Arda in readiness for the Children. He does not directly play a part in the world until the drowning of Numenor (in the physical sense), if I recall. Hence, it is upto the Valar, not Iluvatar himself to "take care of business".

Perhaps culpability isn't the right word. I don't see though where Iluvatar is blameless in all this. He does bring into being the results of the Music, and he does empower the Valar to prepare Arda in readiness for the coming of the Children. However, the vision is incomplete and Iluvatar chose for the Valar not to know all.

From the Silmarillion, Ainulindale, Houghton Mifflin edition, 1977:

And many other things Iluvatar spoke to the Ainur at that time, and because of their memory of his words, and the knowledge that each has of the music that he himself made, the Ainur know much of what was, and is, and is to come, and few thing are unseen by them. Yet some things there are that they cannot see, neither alone nor in taking counsel together; for to none but himself has Iluvatar revealed all that he has in store, and in every age there comes forth things that are new and have no foretelling, for they do not proceed from the past. And so it was that as this vision of the World was played before them, the Ainur saw that it contained things which they had not thought. And they saw with amazement the coming of the Children of Iluvatar, and the habitation that was prepared for them; and they perceived that they themselve in the labour of their music had been busy with the preparation of this dwelling, and yet knew not that it had any purpose beyond its own beauty. For the Children of Iluvatar were conceived by him alone; and they came with the third theme, and were not in the theme which Iluvatar propounded at the beginning, and none of the Ainur had part in their making. Therefore, when they beheld them, the more did they love them, being things other than themselves, strange and free, wherein they saw the mind of Iluvatar reflected anew, and learned yet a little more of his wisdom, which otherwise had been hidden even from the Ainur.

Originally posted by Durin1

Also, many ages pass between the making of the world, its fashioning and the strifes between Melkor and the other Valar (throwing down of the lamps, moving from Almaren etc etc, not to mention all the "quiet" periods. So how could it be bad timing? The Valar should have made war upon Melkor sooner (so says Iluvatar) and they shouldn't have brought them to Valinor: as Iluvatar had intended for them to live in the lands of their awakening. A few times in the Sil we have hints that the Valar anticipate the awakening of the Elves, and yet they still delay. How could Iluvatar be culpable for that?

Iluvatar chose not to intervene. It just seems somewhat that the Valar were confused as to what they could and could not do, or what they should do. Iluvatar was aware of the struggle between Melkor and the other Valar.

From Ainulindale:

And Iluvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: "seeist thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethopught him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destryed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of thy clear pools.

Originally posted by Durin1

The Valar not only wanted to protect the Elves, they wanted to "enjoy" their company. The fact that Melkor had been captured should have also provided the Valar the impetus to provide some sort of protection for the elves living in the lands of their birth.

Middle-earth had become severely damaged and dangerous. The Valar were spent in trying to repair its hurts. Therefore, their solution to protecting the Elves was to summon them to Valinor.