Goldberry

[ItalianLegolas]

yeah, i guess

[ecthelion]

"The river's daughter"
Got me thinking again...
What if Goldberry is the river's daughter, literally daughter as said before, but literally river as in Ulmo?

What if Goldberry is Ulmo's daughter?

(Read the 2 previous posts about Goldberry and haven't found this theory. Searched google and found this:
http://blind-guardian.com/forum/view...8f8ebad5ba54d9
)

To make it consistent with previous arguments:
Tom's origin and Goldberry's don't necessarily have to be linked. We could take Tolkien's writing literally: "long ago I found her"... Tom was uniquely created, and met Goldberry.
Her description does sometimes remind us of Ulmo's (clad in fish mail).
A couple in Tolkien's writing doesn't have to be of the same order (see Melian the maia and Thingol the elf).
Also they had a daughter, so maiar (and possibly valar) can have children.

Shoot me now and spare yourselves the agony of debating this all over again

[Lindáriel]

Originally Posted by ecthelion

"The river's daughter"
Got me thinking again...
What if Goldberry is the river's daughter, literally daughter as said before, but literally river as in Ulmo?

What if Goldberry is Ulmo's daughter?

(Read the 2 previous posts about Goldberry and haven't found this theory. Searched google and found this:
http://blind-guardian.com/forum/view...8f8ebad5ba54d9
)

To make it consistent with previous arguments:
Tom's origin and Goldberry's don't necessarily have to be linked. We could take Tolkien's writing literally: "long ago I found her"... Tom was uniquely created, and met Goldberry.
Her description does sometimes remind us of Ulmo's (clad in fish mail).
A couple in Tolkien's writing doesn't have to be of the same order (see Melian the maia and Thingol the elf).
Also they had a daughter, so maiar (and possibly valar) can have children.

Shoot me now and spare yourselves the agony of debating this all over again

LOL means Laugh out loud

[ecthelion]

Originally Posted by Lindáriel

LOL means Laugh out loud

Hello Lindáriel and welcome to Entmoot!

It might be of interest to point out that what appears under the short line in every post is a members signature.

Have a nice moot!

[nokom]

Ho Tom Bom Bombadilo! :P Anyway, I am quite interested in Mr. Bombadil. Goldberry is in no way a God nor is Tom. I personally think that Tom was one of the Istari, and that Goldberry may have been an elf of some nature.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by nokom

Ho Tom Bom Bombadilo! :P Anyway, I am quite interested in Mr. Bombadil. Goldberry is in no way a God nor is Tom. I personally think that Tom was one of the Istari, and that Goldberry may have been an elf of some nature.

One of the "Blue Wizards" then? Interesting theory, but since the Istari only came to Middle Earth at about 1000 of the Third Age, that doesn't seem to work with the way Elrond spoke about Bombadil.

[elven dragonrider]

I disagree that Goldberry might be an elf of some sort. I may need to read the book again, and I might be wrong. I remember something strange about her that could be elf-like, but I do remember making the mental decision that she was not an elf. I may be wrong!>

[nokom]

Yes about how Elrond spoke of Tom... Not sure there, that always halts it...

[ecthelion]

*stubborn *
So why can't she be Ulmo's daughter?

[Landroval]

The Valar having children was an early idea that Tolkien discarded later. Of the spouses of the valar, he states in Annals of Aman that spouse means only association. Ulmo himself didn't even have a spouse

Originally Posted by Of the valar, Silmarillion

Ulmo is the Lord of Waters. He is alone.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Landroval

Ulmo himself didn't even have a spouse

But he had helpers, lesser ainur Ossё and Uinen.
Since we know that Maiar descended to the ME in multitude, it would be save to assume that the mighty Lord of Water has had more than two "helpers and servants", and among them was a River-woman.
How did she manage to produce Goldberry - beats me! But on Melian's example we know that it could happen. Lucky elf, maybe, or fisherman...
So, Golberry could be in some way similar to Luthien - half a human/elf, half a nature spirit with some maiar blood in her veins.

[Landroval]

But on Melian's example we know that it could happen.

However, the letters state that the whole business of elvish blood entering and ennobling the human race was Eru's plan. We have no such hint on Goldberry. As far as I am concerned, she can be an elf and that would do. Tolkien warned against coming up with off the wall theories on Tom, because he is supposed to be a mystery; I suppose the same goes for his entourage.

[ecthelion]

Originally Posted by Landroval

Tolkien warned against coming up with off the wall theories on Tom, because he is supposed to be a mystery; I suppose the same goes for his entourage.

JRR meant Tom Bombadil to be a mystery, we all agree; But maybe he wanted that mystery solved ... maybe he left clues, that only the wise could read
And I propose not to automatically put Tom and Goldberry always together; their origins are not necessarily connected.
And Ulmo not having a spouse doesn't mean he doesn't have offsprings

[Landroval]

But maybe he wanted that mystery solved ... maybe he left clues, that only the wise could read

That's a common game on most Tolkien forums .

[carlrodd]

i always thought it was reasonable to assume that goldberry, being the 'river daughter' was simply a maia spirit subservient to ulmo. that she became paired with tom bombadil, who i assume to be a greater maia power and servant of yavanna, fits nicely. yavanna had one of the greatest loves for middle earth of all the valar...maybe the greatest. she refused to forsake the land, and it makes sense that she would entrust it's care to a powerful spirit. if tom bombadil filled this roll from the beginning of tolkien's pre-history in middle earth, he would assuredly be 'the eldest', especially given that he presumably never left.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Landroval

However, the letters state that the whole business of elvish blood entering and ennobling the human race was Eru's plan. We have no such hint on Goldberry. As far as I am concerned, she can be an elf and that would do..

We are not talking about an improvement of human race.
You are talking about mixing up of Higher Nature Powers with Eruhini. It was definately not in Eru's plan, othervise it would be a lot of "Luthiens" on the ME.
But s...t happens , and the Creator had to include it in his plan, the way he did with all Melkor's wrongdoings.

By Tolkien's understanding Goldberry is a lesser than maia local nature spirit, who represents "the actual seasonal changes" (Letter#210)
How she was created is a mystery, but knowing that all nature spirits came from the High Powers of Nature, considering that she is a "daughter" of the nature spirit, and knowing the well documented incident of the spirit is getting pregnant, you could come to an abovementioned conclusion.

On the other hand, she might wery well got created herself out of Ulmo's waters.

Originally Posted by Landroval

Tolkien warned against coming up with off the wall theories on Tom, because he is supposed to be a mystery...

...That's a common game on most Tolkien forums ...

Professor was not interested in “simply telling his story”, his concern was in CONVEYING the message about the events of long gone world, glimpses of which was coming to him as separate visions of the whole big picture, but the links between the fragments was not always there.”(The stories) arose in my mind as “GIVEN“ THINGS, and as they came, separately, so too the links grew…yet always I had the sense of “recording” what was already “THERE” somewhere not of “inventing“… (Letter#131)
So, by his words, the story of the book consists “the vistas of yet more legends and history“.
As he admitted , in some cases, when he was taking ”largely impersonal view “on the LOTR, he himself has been surprised with findings that the base canvas of the story seems giving a quite different interpretation of the events. The links between events was missing and he had to “think up” some explanations of things which didn’t “add up”.

We are just trying to find that "missing links" by applying a logistic to the basic information, which has been given in Tolkien's writings.
In other words, to do the same thing what Tolkien was doing for the rest of his life.

[Landroval]

You are talking about mixing up of Higher Nature Powers with Eruhini. It was definately not in Eru's plan, othervise it would be a lot of "Luthiens" on the ME.

That's a slippery slope fallacy. And to disprove from the letters:

Originally Posted by Letter #153

The entering into Men of the Elven-strain is indeed represented as part of a Divine Plan for the ennoblement of the Human Race, from the beginning destined to replace the Elves.

By Tolkien's understanding Goldberry is a lesser than maia local nature spirit, who represents "the actual seasonal changes" (Letter#210)

We have little reason to takes this literary. What did she up until there were seasons, play poker in Valinor? Her description is more in tune with Tom's, "the spirit of the (vanishing) Oxford and Berkshire countryside". Which only brings us back to the mystery presumption.

his concern was in CONVEYING the message about the events of long gone world

Easy on that. He stated in the LotR foreward that the story has no message in his intention.

The links between events was missing and he had to “think up” some explanations of things which didn’t “add up”.We are just trying to find that "missing links" by applying a logistic to the basic information, which has been given in Tolkien's writings.

It is one thing to link events and a completely different one to try clarify mysteries of mythology which he intended to be so. It doesn't mean we can't discuss these, but I doubt we would ever come close to the coherent place Tolkien envisioned for them. When and if we do, we won't even know that; there is no one to actually confirm it.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Landroval

That's a slippery slope fallacy. And to disprove from the letters:

Here you are again.. disproving nothing.
We are not talking about a Divine plan for the Elven-strain "entering into Men". On this issue I completely agree with you.
The issue is whether the Nature Powers (Ainur) were intended to "improve" the Children of Iluvatar. So far I did not find any refrence.
From the beginning we have to assume that Goldberry is kind of unique being. While reading, I have got an impression that most of the time she spends in the water, where she belongs. So, she is not an elf, she is not a human, then - who is she? We could live her as she is - the mystery, or by the method of deduction we, somehow, could try to explain her origin.
Tolkien, at least made such attempt.

Originally Posted by Landroval

We have little reason to takes this literary.

Buddy, you are contradicting yourself.
All the time you were advocating for taking Tolkien's words at the face value, quoting him as the final judgement on every issue, and now "have little reason to take this literary"?
I have a reason to think that by this words Tolkien accepted Goldberry neither a human, nor as an elf. He tried to fit her "more in tune with Tom", and on this statement I agree with you.

Originally Posted by LANDROVAL

Easy on that. He stated in the LotR foreward that the story has no message in his intention.

Well, he has had different statements, often changing his opinion on this matter.
Remember our dispute on a Christian subject? You were urging me to contradict the given by Tolkien's statement of his intention to convey Christian messages in his book. Now, by saying that his intention were to give no messages whatsoever (which is simply inpossible for any writer to achieve), you were contradicting yourself and at the same time giving yourself an answer on the previous discussion.

Originally Posted by LANDROVAL

...but I doubt we would ever come close to the coherent place Tolkien envisioned for them. When and if we do, we won't even know that; there is no one to actually confirm it.

True.., but this is what makes more interesting discussions, and this is what makes thousands of scholars to "dig" into the work of Tolkien.
Because, in a way, the magnitude of historical time in his world you can't compare with any book , save only the Bible.

[Landroval]

disproving nothing.

You stated that the improvement was not part of Eru's plan. I just gave a quote which states otherwise. I begin to have doubts about how serious you are about this debate.

We could live her as she is - the mystery, or by the method of deduction we, somehow, could try to explain her origin.
Tolkien, at least made such attempt.

That "attempt" rather disqualifies your effort of using "deduction" to figure out her origin.

All the time you were advocating for taking Tolkien's words at the face value, quoting him as the final judgement on every issue, and now "have little reason to take this literary"?

You are aware that whatever I said, as a person, has zero significance to the idea itself that I am arguing for? We are debating ideas, not persons here. Whether the idea I argue is true or not does not depend on my person. Using this type of ad hominem logical fallacy, "tu quoque", only weakens your argument.

Where did I ever argue that none of Tolkien's ideas were expressed figuratively? You substitute my critic of erroneous interpretations with advocating strictly direct meanings.

Well, he has had different statements, often changing his opinion on this matter.

I don't think his actual opinion changed; he simply presented in its different facets. In the foreword he was discouraging the identification of a particular message, and I believe this is in relation to the allegory issue he had. He considered that the spiritual truths should not appear explicitly in a fairy tale, so I don't think we should rush to saying that his purpose was "CONVEYING the message about the events of long gone world". My statement was intended at tempering your drive to pointing "THIS is the message" without considering other factors.

I have a reason to think that by this words Tolkien accepted Goldberry neither a human, nor as an elf. He tried to fit her "more in tune with Tom", and on this statement I agree with you.

So, if you are agreeing their nature is similar, and if Tom is a mystery, then why resort to all these side-trackings?

Your position brings us even closer to Tolkien's statement that in every age there must be some mysteries, intended so by the author. I still doubt we can probe them, or that doing so may be more than barren speculation.

[Jon S.]

You folks have all of you got it wrong!

Goldberry is obviously Sugar Magnolia!!!

"Sugar Magnolia/Sunshine Daydream"
Words by Robert Hunter and Robert Weir

Sugar Magnolia blossom's blooming
Head's all empty and I don't care
Saw my baby down by the river
Knew she'd have to come up soon for air

Sweet blossom come on under the willow
We can have high times if you'll abide
We can discover the wonders of nature
Rolling in the rushes down by the riverside

She's got everything delightful
She's got everything I need
Takes the wheel when I'm seeing double
Pays my ticket when I speed

She come skimming through rays of violet
She can wade in a drop of dew
She don't come and I don't follow
Waits backstage while I sing to you

She can dance a Cajun rhythm
Jump like a Willys in four wheel drive
She's a summer love in the spring, fall and winter
She can make happy any man alive

Sugar magnolia
Ringin' that blue bell
Caught up in sunlight
Come on out singing
I'll walk you in the sunshine
Come on honey, come along with me

She's got everything delightful
She's got everything I need
A breeze in the pines in the summer night moonlight
Crazy in the sunlight yes indeed

Sometimes when the cuckoo's crying
When the moon is halfway down
Sometimes when the night is dying
I take me out and I wander round
I wander round

Sunshine daydream
Walk you the tall trees
Going where the wind goes
Blooming like a red rose
Breathing more freely
Light out singing
I'll walk you in the morning sunshine
Sunshine daydream
Walk you in the sunshine