Favorite Maiar - Page 2

Turgon_Turambar · 01-09-2004, 12:35 PM

Eonwe was the champion of the war of wrath so i suppose he was pretty powerful and Sauron with respect to him was also mighty but i think in my opinion and from the mighty warriors that this maiar slayed i think the mightiest and strongest maiar had to be Gothmog high commander of Angband. im sure people will disagree but thats what i think.

Radagast The Brown · 01-09-2004, 02:17 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Turgon_Turambar

Quote:

Originally posted by Turgon_Turambar
Eonwe was the champion of the war of wrath so i suppose he was pretty powerful and Sauron with respect to him was also mighty but i think in my opinion and from the mighty warriors that this maiar slayed i think the mightiest and strongest maiar had to be Gothmog high commander of Angband. im sure people will disagree but thats what i think.

I disagree. He was, after all, a balrog - which kinda, I tink, wickens im, because balrogs can 'die' like Istari can, and other maiar can't.
I mean - other maiar can choose if they want a body or not, while the balrogs can't leave their bodies.
I want to remind you that Gothmog was killed by an elf, and with all the rewspect for elves, you won't see a maia that was killed by one. (when I say maia I mean the ones in Aman, or Sauron before he bacame evil, etc.)

brownjenkins · 01-09-2004, 03:07 PM

i don't know if it is really clear on who of the ainur can and can't die... if i remember rightly, in lost tales it was said that the maiar could but the valar could not... but i don't think this distinction was carried on to the silmarillion

we know that all ainur could take different forms or leave their body... the only exceptions i can remember is melkor losing the ability because of his nature and divestment of power... sauron, after his body was destroyed in numenor... the istari when they were sent to middle earth

so one would assume that balrogs could take another form if they choose to (with or without wings

)... and if their bodies were destroyed, they would continue on in spirit form, but without something like sauron's ring, would never be able to significantly reconstitute themselves... i would assume the exact same would be true of any other maiar, like eonwe

Radagast The Brown · 01-09-2004, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by brownjenkins
i don't know if it is really clear on who of the ainur can and can't die... if i remember rightly, in lost tales it was said that the maiar could but the valar could not... but i don't think this distinction was carried on to the silmarillion

we know that all ainur could take different forms or leave their body... the only exceptions i can remember is melkor losing the ability because of his nature and divestment of power... sauron, after his body was destroyed in numenor... the istari when they were sent to middle earth

so one would assume that balrogs could take another form if they choose to (with or without wings )... and if their bodies were destroyed, they would continue on in spirit form, but without something like sauron's ring, would never be able to significantly reconstitute themselves... i would assume the exact same would be true of any other maiar, like eonwe

I don't think maiar can die. I really doubt they can. I have no quotes or anything, but I thought it's obvious. I guess I was wrong.

Balrogs are too - put them in the list - thank you.

I don't think it's possible for tem - I mean, if he could, he would probably shape himself as a bird and fly or something when he was going to die. Balrgos are a mystery, though.

What do you think, brownjenkins?

brownjenkins · 01-09-2004, 03:59 PM

maybe the balrogs, like melkor, got so caught up in the evil domination thing, that they too lost the ability to take on any other form... something which, for some reason (his cunning?) sauron was able to hold onto until he actually lost his body

Arien the Maia · 01-09-2004, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by brownjenkins
maybe the balrogs, like melkor, got so caught up in the evil domination thing, that they too lost the ability to take on any other form... something which, for some reason (his cunning?) sauron was able to hold onto until he actually lost his body

I think the reason Melkor lost the control over his bodily shape is that he gave so much of his power to the Earth and Sauron...Sauron on the ohter hand poured his into his Ring.

Thorin II · 01-10-2004, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Aden
I've had this discussion before but there have always been a lot of different opinions: who do you think was the most powerfull Maia (overall)??

I would definitely vote for Sauron. Beyond his own powers, he had a knack for building those nasty armies...

Arien the Maia · 01-10-2004, 01:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Thorin II
I would definitely vote for Sauron. Beyond his own powers, he had a knack for building those nasty armies...

Sauron is AWESOME!!! too bad he couldn't have repented and turned all the mayhem he caused into good

oh well

Arandir · 01-10-2004, 02:22 AM

Olórin, thank you. I wish he was still around.

Wayfarer · 01-10-2004, 03:05 AM

Ah! But who do you think inspired JRR Tolkien to write the history of Middle Earth, Ah?

Arandir · 01-10-2004, 04:33 PM

It's a nice thought. I suppose someone had to lead him to those ancient, long-lost texts.

Aden · 01-10-2004, 05:14 PM

I don't know if balrogs could change forms. But even if they could I don't think they had reasons to change their form. I mean that balrogs are beings of pure evil, usually serving a master without any reason to conceal their nature or their intentions. Melkor and Sauron changed forms in order to deceit others and gain popularity. Balrogs never had to do anything like that.

Quote:

my vote goes to Gandalf since the Balrog "died" first

Mine too.

Dúnedain · 01-11-2004, 01:00 AM

Maybe Balrogs didn't change forms, because they were given the option of spawning wings

lol

Lord Manafirogh · 01-11-2004, 02:56 PM

I'd say eonwe. sauron was powerful but he aint my favourite. i donno much about maiars.

Aden · 01-11-2004, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lord Manafirogh
I'd say eonwe. sauron was powerful but he aint my favourite. i donno much about maiars.

You don't need the -s :
Maia:singular
Maiar: plural

Arien the Maia · 01-11-2004, 10:59 PM

I'm not sure if this is covered in another thread (I'm sure that it is but I'm really lazy to go looking for it right now) so here's my question regarding Maiar....when Sauron was destroyed, does Tolkien say anywhere what happens to his spirit? I mean can someone really destroy a spirit if they aren't the One who made it (Eru)? Same goes for Saruman....what happens to them when their bodily forms are destroyed?

Radagast The Brown · 01-12-2004, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Aden
I don't know if balrogs could change forms. But even if they could I don't think they had reasons to change their form. I mean that balrogs are beings of pure evil, usually serving a master without any reason to conceal their nature or their intentions. Melkor and Sauron changed forms in order to deceit others and gain popularity. Balrogs never had to do anything like that.

Sauron also chsanged his form when he faught Huan, and lost.

Thorin II · 01-12-2004, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Thorin II
I would definitely vote for Sauron. Beyond his own powers, he had a knack for building those nasty armies...

I was voting for most powerful. My favorite is Gandalf. He showed the most spirit, in my view.

Aden · 01-13-2004, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
I'm not sure if this is covered in another thread (I'm sure that it is but I'm really lazy to go looking for it right now) so here's my question regarding Maiar....when Sauron was destroyed, does Tolkien say anywhere what happens to his spirit? I mean can someone really destroy a spirit if they aren't the One who made it (Eru)? Same goes for Saruman....what happens to them when their bodily forms are destroyed?

In "letters of JRRT" Tolkien indicates that when Gandalf died (in Moria) it was Iluvatar that sent him back not the valar. So I'm not sure but I believe (at least for the Istari) that when they die the only one who has authority to decide where they go is Iluvatar.

Durin1 · 01-13-2004, 12:05 PM

Osse for me. Had a wicked side to him (like me!)

01-09-2004, 12:35 PM	#21
Turgon_Turambar Elven Warrior Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: The depths of Thangorodrim Posts: 145	Eonwe was the champion of the war of wrath so i suppose he was pretty powerful and Sauron with respect to him was also mighty but i think in my opinion and from the mighty warriors that this maiar slayed i think the mightiest and strongest maiar had to be Gothmog high commander of Angband. im sure people will disagree but thats what i think. __________________ GOD SENT ME TO PISS THE WORLD OFF!!!!!!!!!!

01-09-2004, 03:07 PM	#23
brownjenkins Advocatus Diaboli Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Reality Posts: 3,767	i don't know if it is really clear on who of the ainur can and can't die... if i remember rightly, in lost tales it was said that the maiar could but the valar could not... but i don't think this distinction was carried on to the silmarillion we know that all ainur could take different forms or leave their body... the only exceptions i can remember is melkor losing the ability because of his nature and divestment of power... sauron, after his body was destroyed in numenor... the istari when they were sent to middle earth so one would assume that balrogs could take another form if they choose to (with or without wings )... and if their bodies were destroyed, they would continue on in spirit form, but without something like sauron's ring, would never be able to significantly reconstitute themselves... i would assume the exact same would be true of any other maiar, like eonwe __________________ Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. Last edited by brownjenkins : 01-09-2004 at 03:08 PM.

01-09-2004, 03:59 PM	#25
brownjenkins Advocatus Diaboli Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Reality Posts: 3,767	maybe the balrogs, like melkor, got so caught up in the evil domination thing, that they too lost the ability to take on any other form... something which, for some reason (his cunning?) sauron was able to hold onto until he actually lost his body __________________ Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.

01-10-2004, 02:22 AM	#29
Arandir Hobbit Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: somewhere in Ennorath Posts: 21	Olórin, thank you. I wish he was still around. __________________ "It's wisdom to recognize necessity, when all other courses have been weighed, though as folly it may appear to those who cling to false hope." -Elrond

01-10-2004, 03:05 AM	#30
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Ah! But who do you think inspired JRR Tolkien to write the history of Middle Earth, Ah? __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

01-10-2004, 04:33 PM	#31
Arandir Hobbit Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: somewhere in Ennorath Posts: 21	It's a nice thought. I suppose someone had to lead him to those ancient, long-lost texts. __________________ "It's wisdom to recognize necessity, when all other courses have been weighed, though as folly it may appear to those who cling to false hope." -Elrond

01-11-2004, 01:00 AM	#33
Dúnedain High King of Númenórë Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Númenórë <--United States of America Posts: 1,947	Maybe Balrogs didn't change forms, because they were given the option of spawning wings lol __________________ 'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen

01-11-2004, 02:56 PM	#34
Lord Manafirogh Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: London Posts: 187	I'd say eonwe. sauron was powerful but he aint my favourite. i donno much about maiars.

01-11-2004, 10:59 PM	#36
Arien the Maia Fëanáro's Fire Mistress Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Indiana, USA Posts: 1,423	I'm not sure if this is covered in another thread (I'm sure that it is but I'm really lazy to go looking for it right now) so here's my question regarding Maiar....when Sauron was destroyed, does Tolkien say anywhere what happens to his spirit? I mean can someone really destroy a spirit if they aren't the One who made it (Eru)? Same goes for Saruman....what happens to them when their bodily forms are destroyed? Last edited by Arien the Maia : 01-11-2004 at 11:04 PM.

01-13-2004, 12:05 PM	#40
Durin1 Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Birmingham, UK Posts: 221	Osse for me. Had a wicked side to him (like me!) __________________ Durin the Sleepless!

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